Forum: How Much Ammunition is Enough

Just how much ammunition is enough in preparing for the upcoming pandemic. I have about 400 for my 9mm, 300 for my .38 and 200 shells for my 12 gauge shotgun. I anticipate that martial law will be in place quickly and as people run out of supplies they will be on the move to find more. Whether or not this means looting from others I don’t know, but anticipate it to be so. The Federal Government could not even handle the New Orleans disaster, so there is no reason to believe they can handle the 50 states in the event of a pandemic. I was just wondering how others were set up ammunition wise as well as weapons wise. I was also thinking of getting an SKS Assault Rifle and I called my local Gun shop and they said they were $ 169.99 to include a 5 round clip. Are these guns any good? Reliable? Let me know your thoughts on the above. Thanks

Don’t forget RPGs

Thanks Meb. Where did you get yours?

I can recommend a much better semi-auto rifle, except that it costs about $700. It’s extremely reliable, though, and that’s what counts.

However, I don’t know if that’s something appropriate to discuss here. And I can’t answer your ammo question right off the top of my head - sorry about that.

Thanks Amsterdam, but for $700 I will pick up an M-16. Was this the weapon you were referring to?

That was me monkebiz on the last post. Forgot to put in.

Are you planning to fight a war or defend your home? The sound of a 12 gauge pump action being chambered should do the latter nicely.

Anonymous -

Nope, it doesn’t require a federal permit like an M-16 would (that’s a full-auto weapon, and you need a federal permit for one of those unless you’re in the military).

It’s a Ruger PC9 carbine.

And Melanie’s point is a good one ;-)

Thanks Amsterdam. In reference to Meb’s point, everyone has their opinions. If there is indeed a pandemic you can expect New Orleans 100 times over and there will be a need to protect oneself and their families. Meb probably does not have a gun and or has probably not fired one either. I am trying to post a legitimate subject and don’t really need her criticism. She will be the first one crying for help when tshtf. I had most of my ammunition and all of my guns for years. I was just wondering what people had for ammunition just to get an idea. I’m sure I will get more posts to this subject in the morning hours.

An outdoor motion sensor (used to turn on entry way lighting) can be purchased at the hardware store and connected to turn on your stero system. A recording of 2 enraged german shepherds proves very effective in deterring everybody including salesmen and the postman! It’s also a lot cheaper and easier to maintain than a firearm or a real dog!

Oh Melanie I did not see your post. Ya a 12 gauge should do the trick, but sometimes more firepower is desired in certain situations. The pandemic situation could last for more than a year and you could find yourself having to leave your home to find different shelter. You can expect gangs of people roming the streets looking for food, women, etc. All the nuts will be out there acting out their fantasies and I will definitely protect my family.

Monkebiz, I try to stay out of gun arguements. <g> But, since I own an SKS, I’ll give you my opinion.

I’d rather have a 12 guage pump 90% of the time. It was the right weapon when I lived in the country on 25 acres, but is the wrong weapon for me now, living in a small town.

Nothing wrong with the SKS. Reliable, light weight, packs a decent punch. But it is the wrong weapon for most urban or suburban scenarios. Too much chance of overpenetration, missing your target and shooting some poor slob sitting in his living room down the street.

A pump shotgun, in 12 or 20 gauge, is highly effective, inexpensive, and less likely to cause collateral damage.

Gunfights are usually nasty, short, and end badly for someone.

They are best avoided if possible.

Monkebiz— There is another firearm thread and I seem to recall the subject of ammo being on there.

Rick - A recording of a dog? That is your idea of protection? Glad you’re not the man in charge of protecting my house. Geez!

Thanks Florida Medic. I do appreciate your input on then SKS. I was just wondering because they were so cheap costwise that I was concerned with quality.

Anonymous, thanks for the info on the other firearm thread.

Rick, Good luck to you when they are kicking in your door. I hope your German Shepherd recording works.

I purchased a 12ga right after Katrina ( if that didn’t open your eyes, what will ). Don’t want to get into any gun fights, but you best believe that I am not going down with out a fight ( Vietnam Vet ). I don’t think you could ever have enough ammo. The wife has already shot the 12ga and I may even purchase one for her. Defense is the best answer to terror. Sad but true, cause Bigger fish eat Smaller fish. Lets all hope it never comes to a pandemic.

The SKS rifles can often slam fire a round even on safety. Its happened to me. I prefer the AR-15. But inside the home a shot gun is a great choice with a 9mm in my pants.

Look into a High Point 9 mm semi auto rifle. They are short and handy with a removable 10 round mag. The 9mm is a pistol bullet and has stopping power , but not as much as the 7.62 x 39 mm (SKS) round . I found the one that I got at a gunshow for less than $175.00 . I also installed a laser sight in it , so all you have to do is put the red dot on something and that is where the bullet will hit

I said the dog recording was a deterrent. A Colt .45 series 70 Gold Cup loaded with 200gr Hensley & Gibbs #68 bullets with 5.2 grains of Bulleseye pistol powder with a cartridge overall length of 1.260 is a heavy but extremely accurate load up to 100 yards and has served me well in many pratical pistol shoots. The bullets chronograph at 975–985 fps. Oh yea, forgot to tell ya, I cast my own. Better put in an 18 lb recoil spring and a shock buff if you intend to kill more than 500 people. Also, WW2 GI surplus clips are very reliable but check that the lips aren’t cracked. If you do decide to shoot a centerfire rifle or shotgun from inside the house, please try to keep the muzzle outside the house, the concussion is rather annoying. In any case be sure to wear your ear defenders and safety glasses!

Didn’t the police in New Orleans confiscate guns in the weeks following the disaster? It seems like I read something about that in the NRA magazine.

My husband has been hard at work assembling bullets in the garage which would normally annoy me but, under the circumstances, I find myself wanting to encourage him to keep at it!

If there’s a problem around here, we may have a mini WWIII since 50%+ of the people in this state own guns.

The police are not allowed to confiscate legally owned guns unless they are being used in committing crimes. If that was happening in New Orleans, I hope the NRA is suing somebody.

Yes, they are suing. I’m sure that is where I read it. They were illegally confiscating guns, which is a pretty scary concept. Do you think that at a time like that they didn’t know that what they were doing was illegal? I’m sure they knew it, they just didn’t care. The same would happen under martial law, I would think. If all heck breaks loose, what good are laws? I think the police/military will do whatever they think is necessary to keep the peace and they won’t worry about little things like the 2nd amendment until long after the fact.

http://tinyurl.com/mrxpm

Confiscating the weapons of law-abiding citizens who are minding their own business is not keeping the peace. If anything, in an emergency situation we need MORE law-abiding people with firearms, not fewer.

Yes, indeed. There was gun confiscation going on in NOLA after Katrina.

On September 8, several news outlets began reporting that officials in New Orleans were confiscating firearms… not from looters, but from law-abiding citizens who legally owned firearms!

“No one will be able to be armed,” said Deputy Chief Warren Riley. “We are going to take all the weapons.”

The Associated Press quoted Compass, the police commissioner, as saying, “Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons.”

And so, illegal or not, the police began going house to house, removing perfectly legal weapons from the hands of citizens, leaving them unable to protect themselves.

The NRA says they are `monitoring’ the situation.

It should be noted that Louisiana retains a civil law legal system, based on the Louisiana Civil Code, which is similar to the Napoleonic Code ( unlike the rest of the United States, which uses a common law legal system derived from England).

The state has broad powers during a declared emergency.

But that doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen someplace else.

OK, now this thread is going just a little far in the direction of paranoia. Sorry, but when I read it I started having thoughts like

“The answer to your original question is “it depends.” It depends on what the nature of the threats you anticipate facing.

Take for example the zombie hords’ scenario, in which armies of the undead attempt to break into your fortress. In this case, you’ll need several thousand rounds of shotgun slugs. While you’re at it, make them silver slugs in case this army includes vampires or other silver-vulnerable targets.

There’s also the Butch Cassidy scenario to consider, in which the entire Colombian army is at your door. In this case, it’ll take close air support firing 500 lb laser guided bombs to save you.

Finally, there’s the Matrix scenario to consider, in which the virus mutates in such a fashion as to infect the very fabric of reality, and the only way to combat it is by hacking the godlike supercomputer which is in fact responsible for the appearances and activities in our world. In this case, it is not necessary to stock anything, because having hacked into the main control program, you too will have godlike powers to dodge bullets and will be able to call up vast amounts of firepower out of the ether, on a whim”

OK, enough of the satire. Shouldn’t a few boxes of slugs for each of your weapons do it? I thought the point of being armed is more as a show of force than anything else.

The amount of ammo depends on the gun and the area where you live. For my guns with larger capacities, I have more ammo. For my favorite guns, I have even more ammo. For your area, if you are in a densely crowded area, go with short range weapons and ammo. For more rural areas, go the opposite.

Another problem with the SKS is ammo availability. It has been very hard as of late to get the 7.62×39 round. Most dealers are out of Wolf and other manufacturers of that ammo.

You should have several hundred rounds of ammo for each weapon you have. This would include ammo to practice with. Being fluid with you weapon under duress is whats important. Most gun battles end in 2 minutes from fright to fight. Knowing your weapon and its capabilities takes practice. So… practice practice practice and use replenish your couple hundred rounds.

Less emphasis on arms and more emphasis on community preparedness which renders arms unnecessary, please.

Bullets are also needed for hunting, atleast in our case. We can just shoot a deer or antelope out the window if we get hungry.

Melanie, your point is well taken.

Anyone who anticipates needing thousands of rounds of ammo has a very optimistic point of view when it comes to surviving firefights. <g>

As I stated early, gunfights are usually nasty, short, and end badly for someone.

They are best avoided if possible.

I recommend a good 22 cal semi auto with a 4 pwr scope and 30 rnd clips, cheap to buy, cheap to practise with and a hail of 22 cal bullets will run off most any looter.

Melanie- I fully agree with you - in theory. In a perfect world………… However, as we are not seeing any community preparation - especially where I live, where most people live in white-picket-fence-world, I also fully believe in Americans these days NOT believeing it will happen, and also thinking the government will help them, and going their oblivious way until it actually hits and then we all know there will be no food with in 3 days at the latest and they will be hungry. Hunger, fear, crying hungry children, can breakdown the otherwise rational person and mob mentality can carry along people who would otherwise never consider doing anything “wrong”, nevermind trying to break into another persons home to steal food and whatever else they may think useful. Then there are the people whose previously hidden inner nature would be to prey on others for what they didn’t have sense enough to stock for themselves when there was time. We are stocking quite a bit of ammo along with food and other necessities.

Over the years I’ve bought three SKS’s. I think that much of them. You can get the ammo at Cheaper Than Dirt. I reccommend 2,000 rounds. You can also get a 4 power scope on ebay-just type in SKS. I’ve never had any problems with slam firing. I would recommend a rifle with a milled receiver group over the stamped Chinese. Get a booklet on the rifle. It’s easy to learn. Over all in it’s day it was a world class rifle and is, perhaps, the most bang for the buck. Don’t forget to get a couple of packs of stripper clips-I’ve had trouble with the plastic Zytel mags feeding. The Hitec mags are good but run about $85. Worth it? I would invest in a good synthetic stock-about $60, if you want to spiff it up a little. The Chinese 20 round fixed mag works fine. The 7.62X39mm round is basically in the same power range as the 30–30. Every one of mine have been accurate and reliable. I recommend them. For home defense-close up- use your 12 ga. with buck shot.

BTW- I work for a major Supermarket company in NE and I believe the 3 days scenario is a long shot. I won’t have to go to a store- I have what we need already and will continue to stock. But - just imagine a panicked father (maybe mothers would be worse actually) being 1 of 2 people reaching for the last can of- whatever. I’ve seen people get into knock down drag out call the cops and have them arrested, fist fights over who was in line first on Christmas eve. In my wildest imaginings I can’t invision what will happen in this situation. But I would not be one bit surprised to see a person who has been sane and law abiding all their life, pull a gun or knife, to get that last can. The survival instinct will surface and in most people will be such a rush of feelings they have never had before they won’t know how to react and will most likely over react. I forsee severe societal breakdown, very quickly.

Another component of defense is a bullet-proof vest. When you need to go out-of-doors in an uncontrolled situation it may save your life. Any wound could be fatal in an environment such as we are envisioning. This is a better investment than extra ammo. Most predators would aim for your torso, the largest target. And with the vest concealed under a large shirt or jacket they would not know you were wearing one. Saw a video the other day in which a cop was saved (no wounds) by wearing a vest. And you can get your shot off and cleanse the community of that predator.

Don’t let anyone take your guns! If it comes to that I’ll set my house to blow when they enter! I beleave that bird flu is engineered and some of it’s spread artificial, and world governments are controlled by secrit societies of a satanic nature. Most people can’t handle the truth of how massively they’ve been deceived and want to beleave things are better than they really are. Keep an eye on the west coast in the coming weeks and months. Tri-axial HAARP pulses are occuring all over the region in coordinated fashion. Nature doesn’t do that. This is and will equate to volcanic and seismic disruption. War has been declaired upon us by the top echelons of the power elite. Do the research the facts back me up!

D: Sorry to say this is not the forum for this mania. We deal with the possible and probable based on science and history.

D, I’m sure you’ve been told the meds don’t work unless you take them everyday. <g>

ookey…

Rugers are always awesome, but HEAVY, and the PC9 is overpriced. If you don’t mind ugly, Hi-point makes a nice model 9mm carbine that will perform as well as the Ruger and sells for less than $200.

IMO 9mm is fine for picking off a fox in the henhouse, but if you want people stopping power at close quarters, go for a long barrel .45 or .357

> Keep an eye on the west coast in the coming weeks and months

They’ll have to get past Prue, Piper and Phoebe first :-)

D -

Here is the thread you want:

http://www.fluwikie.com/index.php?n=Forum.VentHysteriaHere

D–at 10:49

Tri-axial HAARP pulses…..This is and will equate to volcanic and seismic disruption.

WHAT?!? On another thread, I mentioned these, and you might want to invest: Aluminum foil hats.

Here? Ruger P89 9mm with 350 rounds, 100 of which are Blue Blazer, & a Glock Model 22 .40S&W with 200 hollow-point rounds. Really don’t expect to use either one of ‘em, but they’re insurance.

Does anyone know if Mylar bags will work in place of Aluminum foil hats? I’m thinking of the possibility of Project Starshine being used for mass psychotronic mind control.

Not sure if Mylar can replace Aluminum, but if you seal it and fill it with hot air, you can fly!! :-)

Have a good laugh. I never surprised by such small minded responses which resort to labeling and in essense name calling. You quite obviously are not up to the trip of intellectual investigation, perhaps, from a lack of intellectual horsepower and a rather meager knowledge base. The collective you are the ideal idiot citizen. Enjoy your fluorodated water and msg!

D: I picture you living somewhere in N. Idaho, in a small, one-room cabin, with lots of trees to hide in, and surveillance cameras encircling your property. Escape hatches under the floor, with tunnels leading all the way to Missouri. Hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammo, and enough electronic gear to outfit Intel!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH ROTFLMAO

Hey Flu Wiki people — it is probably not nice to make fun of this issue that D is concerned about. After all, many people laugh at us who are concerned about the bird flu. D obviously knows a lot more about the HAARP situation than we do. For all I know, that might be the reason why the ice caps are melting. Anyway, D this forum is focused on the bird flu. There might be another forum somewhere where you can discuss the HARRP problem with people who know something about it.

Guns, guns, guns, Has anyone thought about other mechanisms for defense? If you are going to isolate how will you protect your home. I think a lot of good ideas come from pioneers. They built those log homes for protection. Big logs, dirt roofs, small slits for windows that a person could not crawl through. There might be some good ideas here. I know that people have talked about getting burned out and that is possible. However, most people will go elsewhere if it is too difficult to get in your house. And, you need to think about protecting small children etc, those who can’t run and shoot.

And on top of theat, I’d be willing to bet that you’re a professor at your local college, correct?

For those wondering what HARRP is:

http://www.pacentro.com/HARRP/harrp.htm

More info on Project Starshine http://tinyurl.com/gsjo9

I would like to know if the Mylar bags I got from Survivial Acres will work just in case D is right and there is a volcano in the US in the next few months.

BroncoBill: I hope you remembered to fill your hollow points with garlic.

I tried to prevent my cellular phone from getting in tuch with its network with mylar.. It dident work, I will build me a blimp instead.. For those who want to make tinfoil hats the fashionable way I recomend the new and hightech fabriks that has been invenented.. Comes in all colors and is soft to the tuch :)

mon-think you have enough ammo-but what shot did you get for the 12 guage-i have one box of 00 buck 12 gauge (only 5 shells about a dollar each)and 3 boxes of bird shot, will get a box or two of 4 shot-as for rifle i have 22,30/30- 308,300mag with scope-will use 30/30 without scope cheap to use and dont expect a long shot-pistol 32,38,9mm.,357-about 200 rounds each -use 9mm first-3- 15 round clips-2 cans pepper-spray-get a holster for the pistol(whers spell check when you need it) 200 dollar 30/30 instead of simi gives you 500 dollars for food my just my thought

The difference is that Project Starshine is a joke, but HAARP is actually a real working project.

And the mylar bag might also substitute as an emergency way to cook pot roast in order to seal in those tasty juices.

> The difference is that Project Starshine is a joke, but HAARP is actually a real working project.

I’ll bet you arent wearing your hat.

Starshine is quite real… http://spacekids.hq.nasa.gov/starshine

Setting up a neighborhood watch is a good first step. This can help you communicate the seriousness of flu pandemic to your neighbors. Then you could talk about an neighborhood protection strategy, with former military neighbors able to help with planning and any acquisitions of firearms, if appropriate.

Having your neighbors stocked up on food and water will be one of your best protection measures. Sharing a rotating watch is the next.

It occured to me that some of us expect conflict that will require the killing of humab beings. A flu thug drops as fast as a criminal looking for drug money. I like the idea of home defense. A 12 ga. in the closet works for me. But it gets way too specific in here. Penetration vs oper-penetration, stopping power, reload times. IMO, the details are being planned way too in advance. Two in the chest and one in the head shouldn’t be our main focus.

I’ve got a question: if the authorities come knocking to confiscate firearms, would it be possible or stupid to try to hide them or at least one, and say you sold it or it got stolen? P.S. I’m getting ready to buy my first gun, just finished taking a firearms class. Thanks for all the great advice!

All aspects have to be thought-out, unpleasant as they may be. Just as athletes have to prepare, train, and visualize for peak performance, so do we, who know that self-defense is a possibility. A possibility that we dearly want to avoid, but can not hesitate to exercise, if the previously imagined, specific scenarios present themselves.

In the US, no authority is going to try to confiscate firearms.

Remember this one? “From my cold dead hands”

Not while republicans control everything

Peej: “I told you, I sold it for food. Sorry, I didn’t get a receipt or the guy’s name!” Good Idea.

Medical Maven - LOL! What happens to your license when you sell a gun normally? Do they keep records? What could they possibly do to you, anyway, fine you? They wouldn’t throw you in jail . . .would they?

No jail, and even less likelihood that they would be coming for your gun. Don’t worry about it. Just keep your gun safely secured, and do not tell any of your neighbors or friends that you have it.

Social breakdown should occur, if it occurs, early in the pandemic. The ones who can’t get access to needed resources will die prety quick.

Attacking peoples homes is banned by OSHA as a hazardous occupation.

Moving around to get resources is a good way to get infected and die.

After 3 months the dangerous and stupid should be dead and society should stabilize.

Torange: You are correct. Lay low (very low profile), “bare your teeth” if you have to, and wait for things to settle out. Then, either emerge to help or wait for “the wave” to subside.

Michael Donnelly, it not only CAN happen, it DID happen - in New Orleans, law enforcement officers, including Federal Marshalls, systematically confiscated legally owned firearms from residents, even if that meant entering their homes and taking the guns by force.

“Remember Katrina” has been a rallying cry at NRA meetings, and several states, including New Hampshire, are putting up bills that prohibit “the confiscation of lawfully owned and lawfully carried firearms during a state of emergency, making a felon of any law enforcement officer who attempts to seize such a firearm during a disaster”.

Groups call arms seizures ‘arbitrary’

By Joyce Howard Price THE WASHINGTON TIMES September 23, 2005

Two national gun rights groups yesterday joined individual Louisiana gun owners in a federal lawsuit to stop authorities from confiscating firearms from private citizens in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

The National Rifle Association (NRA) and the Second Amendment Foundation (SAF) filed a motion in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Louisiana, seeking a temporary restraining order to halt the seizures of guns from law-abiding citizens. They described the confiscations as “arbitrary,” “without warrant or probable cause” and thus “illegal.”

New Orleans Police Superintendent P. Edwin Compass III “completely overstepped his bounds … when he announced two weeks ago in the New York Times that only law-enforcement personnel are allowed to have weapons,” Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the 3-million member NRA said in an interview yesterday.

The police superintendent’s comments were echoed by the city’s Deputy Police Chief Warren Riley, who told ABC News: “No one will be able to be armed. We are going to take all the weapons.”

SAF founder Alan Gottlieb called the gun seizures “outrageous” and “illegal.” He said New Orleans officials have refused to tell gun rights groups why they are now leaving citizens, already devastated by the Category 4 hurricane, “defenseless against lingering bands of looters and thugs.”

Another good article about how Katrina reminded us that our guns can be our best friend in times of disaster.

note on the sks sightss:

The FIRST notch on the rear sight is the “battlefield” setting and is set for 300 meters. This will freak you out the first time you shoot if no one has told you about it. As such you will shoot WAY over your target if you use that one in most close range “emergency” situations. Go to the next notch that is 100 meters for the sighting-in when you first get your weapon. You’ll see it. Get a manual anyway, always a good move with any tool…

Yes, they are OK, especially for the price. Sturdy, robust, powerful enough. If you read the history of them, you find that they are a way, way scaled down anti aircraft cannon, so the design is quite robust. When you buy ammo, it is much cheaper “by the case”, so that’s how much to get. Simple as that, doesn’t matter what caliber or gauge. Although by all accounts what is out there now for “surplus” is it, as far as I know there hasn’t been a new shipment into the US for quite some time now. Not sure if it’s the government doing that or what, but it is what I have seen and heard. It is still possible to get full cases, so no time like the present. Now that is for full metal jacket military styled ammunition, if you are going to use the SKS for hunting just get some regular softpoint hunting ammo, and yes, it will be signifigantly more expensive per box of 20.

You will also need what are called “stripper clips” to preload rounds. The SKS is loaded from the top from those strippers. You load the strippers. Pull back the bolt to a locked position. Insert the stripper bottom edge and push the rounds from it into the rifle’s fixed magazine. Release the bolt. Now the rifle is ready. Practice it several times, in a SAFE place, with the muzzle pointing downrange. You can jack the cartridges back out, the practice reloading it again. it won’t take long, you’ll “get it” soon enough. Nothing beats “muscle memory”.

They strippers are cheap,(a few for a buck) and you can get a bandolier that holds a lot of them for under ten dollars at most surplus shops or gunshows or online, etc.

If you are normal sized, you might find the stocks rather short. They make aftermarket stocks, or you can add a small butt extension that just screws on in place of the metal butt plate.

Get one for you and squirrel away one per kid for the future, they will appreciate the gesture later on, guaranteed.

Just my random feedback on some of the above posts-

Yes, you should have a boatload of ammo…to practice with.

Bullet-proof vests?Why?Are you going to hold up a California bank? Rifle bullets typically will defeat vests, and if you’re close enough for a handgun battle, you’ve got more area unprotected than is protected by a vest. A vest may also give many a false sense of security, causing them to practice unsafe behavior (like allowing themselves to get into a gunfight!). Plus, any self-respecting adversary will perform a double-tap on you…and the first shot to your vest will knock the crap out of you just long enough for his second one to splatter you grey matter.

HAARP is a real project. But please note that it is H-A-“A”-R-P, not HARRP as one of the above links connected to (that was some whacked out conspiracy site-not the official HAARP site that you might have actually been able to learn something from). High Altitude Auroral Research Project- They point their antennae to the sky and play around with the ionosphere-Next time it rains on you out of the blue, maybe that’s them ;)

Yes, they do keep records of your guns- the BATF would know what you should have. Between individuals you can sell along gun without much fuss, but a handgun requires a licensed dealer to transact. If they ever did come asking, (and YES, they might, in spite of the Utopian “not in America” daydreaming), and you tried to tell them it was stolen, they would not likely believe you, and you’d probably crack 5 minutes after they started pressing you as to where it went, so don’t bother deluding yourself- decent people typically don’t posess the tools to lie convincingly.

And the whole racking the shotgun thing…Don’t bet your life on it. Bad guy now knows where you’re at. If I’m armed and intending to do no good, and I hear that sound, I’m turning toward it , not magically disappearing. If you do it in the same room as me, I’m turning and dropping while firing off multiple rounds at you. If you do it from another room, or from behind a wall, I now know I have time to figure out how to defeat you-maybe just shoot through the wall or door wildly- a handgun round will typically penetrate a wall whereas a shotgun round often won’t. You have also told me at that point that you’re more interested in a hollow show of force, as opposed to being willing to USE force. The sound of a round being chambered should be a round being discharged-period. Saber-rattling only works if your opponent is a bigger wuss than you are.

“The sound of a round being chambered should be a round being discharged-period.”

sorry-should have read…”The sound AFTER a round being chambered…”

I’ve bought a handgun, taken the safety class, got a license . . . But don’t know a thing about rifles. Could someone suggest a rifle (that would be effective if a small band of mauraders came to house) for such a person as I . . . shotguns are heavy! Thanks.

Unless you are in a rural area, consider a 28 gauge shotgun; much lighter and less kick than a full size. And the bullet doesn’t travel for a mile, which could be a serious issue to someone in your community. Pump actions are lighter than semi-automatics.

Your handgun would normally be sufficient; why do you believe you need more?

Just a light note, and for laughs from my macho Yank allies: this thread reads like a mad-house tape for us wimp Aussies. Guns of all sorts, rifles and handguns, are virtually unknown in Australian cities. (90% of us are urbanised). Banned years ago and tightly tightly licensed for a few security people.

Our notion (Please, LOL) of home defense is a jo-staff, or a knife or a hatchet—almost surely strictly for display only! And that only in direst extremities. Basically, we plan to simply not answer our doorbells.

That should deter, unless flu-fleeing North Americans come!

Finally? God Bless America and all Americans. You are the first and second line of Australia’s defense.

Nikolai —

We love you Aussies. God bless you. You guys supply the Vegemite and hatchets and we’ll supply the guns and ammo. Together with the Brits, we’ll keep each other safe in this dangerous world!

By god, I ordered a R2D2 Sherman tank off the internet, and when it gets here I’ll be ready…

Pipes: Based on bullet-proof vest use by our police and by our forces in Iraq I would say that it is a valued accessory when it comes to streetfighting. My own concerns are that it is just too easy to get ambushed with just one step out of your door. And most fools out there will aim only for the torso and when you go down they will assume that you are finished. And most will be using handguns or light caliber rifles. That will give me time to either find cover and/or return fire. Many police and soldiers have been saved and have taken down the bad guys because they have worn a vest. The stats back me up.

I am a firm believer in defending home and family, but this topic has been discussed to death in other threads and far too much on this one. I have firearms and ammunition in my home and I hope I don’t have to use any of it. Rather than obsessing on how much firepower you will need to hold off your hungry neighbors, you should be devoting more effort to seeing what you can do to help your community make it through a pandemic.

Hillbilly Bill: If a large part of your community can not help themselves even when you hold them by the hand, show them the way, and shower their path with dollars, what do you think will be the likely outcome in a resource-stretched pandemic? Let us be realistic.

During the past fifty years too many kids have raised themselves. Their parents were absent. We all will pay the price. And there is no pre-pandemic quick-fix for this problem.

Something a lot of you gunpowder-happy folks haven’t thought about with flak-jackets (bulletproof vests)---even if you get hit by a bullet in the torso while wearing one, you will most likely be stunned, or out, long enough to let the offender get away, or come over to you and finish YOU off. Flak jacks only stop the bullet from penetrating…I guarantee that if you are wearing one, and get hit with a live round, that for a few minutes you’d wish it HAD gone through you!

If you get hit in the chest with a .45cal round from about 15–20 feet away, and you happen to be lucky enough to survive one of these “old west” style gun battles that y’all are fantasizing about, take a look at your chest in about 24 hours. You will see the biggest, ugliest, darkest bruise you’ve ever seen. And it will have you wishing you had never gone outside!!!

BroncoBill declaimed:

>Something a lot of you gunpowder-happy folks haven’t thought about with flak-jackets (bulletproof vests)---even if you get hit by a bullet in the torso while wearing one, you will most likely be stunned, or out, long enough to let the offender get away, or come over to you and finish YOU off. Flak jacks only stop the bullet from penetrating…I guarantee that if you are wearing one, and get hit with a live round, that for a few minutes you’d wish it HAD gone through you!

Which is why, if you’re the defender, you shoot the attacker first…

Medical Maven at 09:25:

“We all will pay the price. And there is no pre-pandemic quick-fix for this problem.”

So you are advocating that we should all just arm ourselves to the teeth and shoot anybody that sets foot on our property? How can you say there is no fix? I agree that there is no quick-fix, but then again it could be 5 years or 10 years, or more, before we have a pandemic. Community-wide education and preparedness is the key, not wild west fantasies about gunbattles.

BroncoBill: I am fully aware of the above consequences of being shot with a vest on. You still have more of a chance. And you can not stay indoors forever. I sure don’t plan to. I am not going to entomb myself. Yet at the same time I will be prudent and not be foolish in the chances that I take.

Also, it is amazing what you can do when the adrenalin is pumping. Review police reports and combat accounts.

Bronco at 9:44- “Something a lot of you gunpowder-happy folks haven’t thought about with flak-jackets (bulletproof vests)---even if you get hit by a bullet in the torso while wearing one, you will most likely be stunned, or out, long enough to let the offender get away, or come over to you and finish YOU off. Flak jacks only stop the bullet from penetrating…I guarantee that if you are wearing one, and get hit with a live round, that for a few minutes you’d wish it HAD gone through you!”

pipes - “…and the first shot to your vest will knock the crap out of you just long enough for his second one to splatter your grey matter. “

…my point precisely.

…And I too agree with hillbilly bill…this has been talked to death.

Hillbilly Bill: We are talking about individuals with pathologies and incompetencies that can not be cured in fifty years, if they live that long. No matter what you or I or the government does.

On the other hand, I am all for community-wide education and preparedness.

All I am saying is that even with the best implementation of a good plan, there is NO plan that is up to the shock of a pandemic. All of the experts agree on that. You just hope to mitigate the downside.

And part of that downside is that a significant minority of “loose-cannons” out there have no emotional control, have no skills, have little supplies, have a criminal background, and will see this “disorder” of whatever magnitude as an opportunity.

You can not sugar-coat the situation we are looking at.

maryrose at 5:05- whatever gun/rifle you plan on using, please get some time in practicing at a range- every gun is a little different, get to know how yours works very well.

All- this has probably been said before, but I’ll say it anyway. Those of you with small children or pets (or ‘unstable’ housemates :))- please do not leave loaded guns anywhere with or without the ‘safety’ engaged…store your guns and ammunition securely. I’m sure most people who have guns know this already, but accidents happen all the time. BTW, I’m not against guns- I’ve hunted since I was a young girl- I just didn’t see it mentioned and wanted to add a cution for any ‘newbies’ to gun ownership.

sorry, should have been “wanted to add a caution for any newbies”. Need-more-coffee :)

Pipes makes a good point for the person who knows weapons and has used them against people in the past. The vast majority don’t and haven’t respectively. If one of these types is around your going to lose anyway. If you don’t know weapons you are probably going to shoot yourself or not use it appropriately. Rack the gun and move, yell that you are on the telephone to 911 (even if it isn’t working) or the neighborhood watch. Most marauders are going to go away, they are not looking for a fight, they are looking for supplies.

You would be better off to leave a loaf off bread on the table and you and the kids in the bedroom (one with a window). This is not the time for heroics if you have children and other dependents.

The vast majority of marauders are not trained military or police personnel. Those guys will mostly be helping you if you don’t get in the way or get shot.

Pipes makes a good point for the person who knows weapons and has used them against people in the past. The vast majority don’t and haven’t respectively. If one of these types is around your going to lose anyway. If you don’t know weapons you are probably going to shoot yourself or not use it appropriately. Rack the gun and move, yell that you are on the telephone to 911 (even if it isn’t working) or the neighborhood watch. Most marauders are going to go away, they are not looking for a fight, they are looking for supplies.

You would be better off to leave a loaf of bread on the table and you and the kids in the bedroom (one with a window). This is not the time for heroics if you have children and other dependents.

The vast majority of marauders are not trained military or police personnel. Those guys will mostly be helping you if you don’t get in the way or get shot.

Medical Maven - I agree that no preparedness plan will be up to the devastation of a pandemic, and for sure there will be no lack of degenerates that will seek whatever opportunity they can find to pillage and probably do much worse. I would be the last person to try to sugar coat the situation, I tend to take a rather dark view of human nature, especially when times are bad.

Let me explain if I can how visiting this site has changed my outlook. When the reality of the coming pandemic first sunk in I immediately went into an “I’m gonna get mine while there is still time” mode. This was followed by a sense of smug satisfaction as I surveyed the food, water and fuel stashed in the basement and I must admit I felt a sense of superiority over those around me who were either ambivalent or ignorant of the probable looming disaster. However, after several nights of debating the moral issue of letting my neighbors starve while I sat warm and well-fed in my house, my former position of superiority did not feel so comfortable.

Before you start jumping up and down and waving your arms, let me say that I certainly will not give away what we have and cause my family to come to bad times just because of the short-sightedness of those around me, and I certainly will defend my home, family and possessions to the best of my ability and that will include the use of deadly force as soon as I feel it is neccessary.

I think that I have made a normal progression from ensuring my personal well-being, and that of my family, to looking for what can be done in my local community. If I raise the awareness of just a few people, it will make a difference. Hopefully there will be a ripple effect. I find this to be a more worthy expenditure of my time and effort than counting rounds and endlessly debating whether I will be able to dispatch attackers after taking a round in my flak jacket.

Pipes - okay, you’re right, I’m a lousy liar, I’d crack like an egg and I’m too chicken to lie anyway (puns intended).

In my state, its required to have either a license or ID card to purchase a handgun or a long gun, so they’ll use those applications to find people. You could lie and say you never bought one, but they’d catch you lying.

But what would happen if you flat-out refused? What could they do? Throw you in jail? There isn’t enough room in our jails for the real criminals so they’d probably just fine you, right?

The talk about guns and defending oneself is a legitimate concern. For anyone that’s done last minute Christmas shopping, or has shopped for that “got to have” toy, and seen the fights that break out over such nonsense, it is easy to see how the same would happen when food supplies diminish. People will fight over dwindling supplies in stores. People will loot and shoot as they did after Katrina.

Yes, I am trying to get people to pay attention to the BF. However, as most of you I am positive have experienced, most people ignore you. They believe it cannot simply happen or come here, or numerous other excuses and blank looks. If and when it comes though, those will be the people who panic over getting supplies. And, when the stores are out of supplies, those people will go into survival mode. They won’t be the people you knew, the ones you waved at, the ones your children played with. They will be panicked, in shock to an extent, and doing whatever they can to “survive” for them and their families. When the stores are empty, the next place to find food (besides convenience stores and restaurants) will be in people’s homes. If you can make it look like your house has nothing in it and it works, then fine. But if the pandemic lasts for more than 2 months, expect at least one visit to your house by someone scavenging. If you are in a urban area, expect it even more. Of course, some will look for more than food. Remember after Katrina the people stealing tv’s and shoes. I would hide all of those temptations from sight of the main floor window, just to remove additional incentives to break in.

Hillbilly Bill: I agree with all of your reasoning. I independently came to the same conclusions you did. But when I throw some selective information out there, I am not going to leave undefended my recommendation. And my recommendation stands. Review the stats, police and military. Anecdotal is anecdotal, not worth much when it comes to decisions.

And as far as we fluwikis engaging in topics that are of minimal value in the long run, I could point the finger at everybody on this forum. And that includes the guys (and gals) in charge.

It is part and parcel of hashing things out, getting a feel for each other, and letting off a little steam. A fluwiki.

Medical Maven - good points all, it certainly is not for me to judge what is an appropriate topic and what is not. My best to you and yours.

Peej- Like others who have posted here, I cannot imagine that confiscation would be feasable given the conditions that would make said confiscation desirable in the first place. Don’t get me wrong, I can imagine a situation where TPTB would want to disarm the populace (they’re not too bright when it comes to that sort of critical thinking), I just can’t imagine them being able to pull it off.

In any case, IF they ordered everyone to disarm (under a martial law scenario), and IF you did not do so voluntarily, they would have to come to you. Then, if you refuse, the next step would be arrest-or fight. I don’t think they would think twice about arresting you-they would not be concerned about what they were going to do with you at that point. I just don’t think they could muster the manpower to go to you.

Hillbilly Bill: Thanks. The best to you and yours, too.

And I did make a score these past two weeks in regards to community preparedness. I buttonholed one of the local “town fathers” who is on the board of directors of the regional phone company and ISP provider. I persuaded him to bring up the topic of pandemic planning for his company at his next board meeting (this coming month). I gave him the information he needed. And he is now exercising for the first time in years on his wife’s treadmill, and he is stocking-up on antivirals. And he is getting the rest of his family on board who are spread across the country. I can be persuasive when I want to “turn it on”.

I also had previously gotten my brother on board for pandemic planning for the research unit that he runs for the Pentagon. The plan is in place and ready to go. And he has given input on this issue to his other extensive associates and contacts throughout the Army. This was achieved months ago.

It ain’t all about me, if that is the impression that some have come away with. I just don’t toot my horn. But I decided to do so now.

I heard reports of women being raped during Katrina and I’m more afraid of that than getting robbed since I live alone. I’m fresh out of my first firearms class and there’s a lot they don’t teach you in those classes . . .I didn’t know about all the different kinds of amno or how much to get. I think its a good thing we have this forum to discuss self-protection in a context that’s relevant for many people.

Even when someone here has a strategy that’s more than I would do, it still helps to have the comparison. Unless its a really gross exaggeration, I might not otherwise know what’s “over the top” (and what’s reasonable) in terms of being prepared.

At least some of those rapes in New Orleans were consentual involving minors. Watch out for dad with his shotgun!

Having guns and thousands of rounds of ammo is one thing, using them effectively is something else - and that better be only one part of your defensive plan. Sorry to say it but unless you have ‘Been there, Done that’ you are in for a rude awakening. It just sounds like most of the folks here really do not understand how dirty and ugly this may become. This is not a funeral Home death, all clean, pretty and smelling good – this death, from a ripped apart body smells, and this smell will fill the air, get into your clothes, cause you to puke, and the color of what used to be inside that body will be burned into your mind forever. Please know that even if you are really lucky you may make it through the first gun fight, maybe even the second but as sure as the sun will come up tomorrow you will eventually loose. You need not be killed, in some instances it is better to wound the victim as then it will force the others in the group to render first aid which will give me another opening to get what I want.

I’ll not be in group of fools running down the street breaking windows, destroying cars, trying to break in houses, etc. What I will be doing is watching, listening and waiting… I’ll come at night, I’ll spend 1 or 2 days watching and no matter how good you are you will make a mistake and I will take advantage of that.

Folks, if this flu does come to pass then you must make up your mind that: You cannot do it alone (work with neighbors, family, etc.) A vest will not help – (most of us will go for a head shot) If there is no other way and you must, shoot to kill – never give the bad guys a fair chance Do not let any of the bad guys get away – they will come back PLEASE understand – once the shooting starts there’s a very real possibility that YOU will be killed or at least wounded.

Just a little advice if you want to take it. Keep a very low profile, always look at a situation from the bad guys view point - that it is you on the outside wanting to come in and take the supplies that are inside. From the outside look at your ‘safe place’ and ask yourself – is it worth the chance to take this place? What do I want – meds, fuel, food, water, women? Where would I hide and watch? What can I use for cover and concealment? Don’t be in a hurry – take your time and really look, ask can I hide in that little ditch? How about the patch of bushes? Is a neighbor’s house empty, can I see what I need from that second floor window? Maybe I can watch from the roof across the street? What about that car in the driveway two houses up the street? Once I have watched you I will know - How many people are in the house? Any dogs? Where you are cooking, back porch, the garage? Is there a defensive perimeter? Which of your people are armed and with what type of weapon? How many females, kids, men? How I will take out the one(s) with the gun(s)? I’ll know if and when you exit the building? Are there other people (groups) coming and going? Do you use lights at night (ruins your night vision)?. The list can go on…

Planning, there is quite a bit more that must be addressed aside from shelter, meds, food, water, heat, cooking, etc. The planning never ends, be flexible, practice, and be ready to modify your plans as circumstances change.

I do hope and pray that it never gets this bad but if it does then it is up to you, your planning and actions to determine if you and yours will survive.

This is truly scary! How about just hanging up a big “Quarantine” sign on your doors? Logic dictates that if that’s not the most effective way to scare off would-be intruders, it’s a clear indication that the pandemic isn’t all that bad and that there’s no need to panic anyway.

Get a grip, people! I find the thought of being surrounded by panicky neighbours armed to their eyeballs and pumped up on too many Sylvester Stallone movies and doomsday Hollywood scenarios far more frightening than the thought that some starving bands of marauders might try to steal my rice & beans. For a start, the serious criminals will be too busy raiding food warehouses & pharmacies or looting electronics stores to worry about my little crib.

In most Canadian cities, most people don’t own firearms and I hope our police keep it that way in a pandemic (many rural people do own hunting rifles, etc, and I don’t have any problem with that). But I’d rather end up with a black eye and a busted lip if I have to fight my way out of the supermarket than to be shot dead by some trigger-happy soccer mom who’s not inclined to wait in line!

“I’ll spend 1 or 2 days watching”

Just don’t cough on me.

Some of the questions and info are fine to exchange, and I know from living in Brooklyn about being stalked by muggers and cat burglers. We all have to, when the situation calls for it, think of self-defense. But could you tone down the mayhem fantasies? You got our jaws dropping- *o* - but you do have good writing skills!

Thom, all excellent points, if you want to protect against the bad guys, you have to THINK like a bad guy, pandemic or no pandemic. The points that Thom brought up are essential to keep in mind… most crime victims are victims simply because they let their guard down (forgetting to lock a door, close a window, preoccupied and not paying attention to your surroundings, following the same old habits day in and day out). If you LOOK like an easy mark, you will BE one. The very first thing to know about self-defense is knowing how to avoid getting the bad guy’s attention in the first place.

OK all you warrior types out there… you’ve got 1000’s of rounds of ammo, shot guns, hand guns, assault rifles, bullet resistant vests, canned food, bottled water, security measures and a tape recorded barking dog…

Fantastic! But what are you going to do about THE FLU!!!! Not a single person here has mentioned about how to stay healthy!

All this preparation and all this planning is for naught IF YOU GET SICK. Then what are you going to do? Pry-open that can of condensed chicken noodle soup and sip warm 7-Up? Does anyone see the irony here?

Do you think that just because you are healthy/young/strong that you’re not going to get sick?

Warriors are famous for studying history; it helps them from making the same mistake twice. Here is a history lesson from the last great pandemic in 1918:

“In the two years that this scourge ravaged the earth, a fifth of the world’s population was infected. The flu was most deadly for people ages 20 to 40. This pattern of morbidity was unusual for influenza which is usually a killer of the elderly and young children. It infected 28% of all Americans. An estimated 675,000 Americans died of influenza during the pandemic, ten times as many as in the WWI. The effect of the influenza epidemic was so severe that the average life span in the US was depressed by 10 years. The influenza virus had a profound virulence, with a mortality rate at 2.5% compared to the previous influenza epidemics, which were less than 0.1%.”

Remember, this was in 1918, transatlantic/transpacific travel took days/weeks, not hours as it does today. As of February 20th, the mortality rate of H5N1 is 54.1%

So I’ll ask again, what are you doing to protect your self against the flu?

Me? Glutathione. Look it up.

Thom shows you why you need a neighborhood watch. You do not play soldier unless you have been a soldier. There are enough people in your neighborhood who can take care of trained snipers and who know others tactics as well. For every person on the front line there are four behind in support services. Be where you can serve best.

People with the skills Thom discusses will more than likely be with you not against you. The few rogues that are around don’t last long or they go where there are easier pickings when there is an organization of trained personnel. If you learned from his post that, this is not fantasy stuff all the more power to your organizational skills.

DDH- This thread is about guns and ammunition during a pandemic. What else did you expect people to discuss on this thread? This is not where people are discussing how to protect themselves against the flu.

The question was: “How much ammo is enough?”

My point is that if you’re dead or dying from the flu, guns and ammo are not going to help. Therefore, the thought I was attempting to convey was that perhaps people would be better served if their focus wasn’t so strong on guns and ammo?

Posting that thought on another thread doesn’t quite express the idea does it?

Ideally we will not be dead or dying from the flu; we’ll just be at home trying to stay healthy and making sure if there are roaming marauders (sp?) they keep moving. These people on Flu Wiki have discussed health, food, and preparedness issues to the point where they just want to talk about something exciting and different - guns!

I have to agree with DDH. No matter how much ammo you have, nor how big your guns are, they won’t stop any virus from invading you or your home. All I can picture is Elmer Fudd trying to shoot a fly in his house!

And, just how big a war are you planning on fighting with “1,000s and 1,000s” of rounds of ammo at your disposal? Our soldiers in Iraq don’t have that many rounds available at any given time…

havent you ever seen zombie movies when the guy runs out of ammo dont want to be that guy

havent you ever seen zombie movies when the guy runs out of ammo dont want to be that guy

I’m totally with you Anonymous, guns and ammo are much more exciting than biology… why do you think I started reading this thread to begin with! HA!

But I think one of the points of this thread is that the ideal world is not guaranteed, and that preparation, of ALL types (guns, food, medical supplies, water, etc.), is going to be required to survive.

“guns and ammo are much more exiting” Lets all hope that we don’t see that become a reality.

Folks – The point I was attempting to make, and obviously failed, was to re-enforce the fact that this will not be a one sided fight, nor will it be a fight against a single entity. No one person can fight this alone, even if they all the guns and ammo in the world – or 5 years of preps - a drug store of meds - or a mountain cabin that is only reachable by helicopter. Without help you will lose.

Hey, hold on everyone . . . there’s a continuum of self-defense measures, from bare fists to your own private arsenal, just like there’s a continuum of food storage, and what makes one person feel safe might not be sufficient for another. Just because one person here might prefer to keep more ammo doesn’t mean they’re going to “freak out” and start shooting innocent citizens, they’ll just keep it all stored away somewhere. They’re here because they want to plan in a level-headed manner, nut cases would be on the nutcasewiki forum.

Peej… the voice of reason.

Thom - no one here is arguing with you, we all agree communities make the human race survive.

No one knows what to expect and so we’re preparing for the worst. We do that with food storage. You might not be able to count on your community to help you in a worst-case scenario but ideally, we would all want that.

ammo is alot cheaper to buy in bulk i figure i will have enough to practice with for 10 years ammo dosnt go bad

Well, I was never into firearms until I took this handgun class last month and now I have a new understanding and appreciation. It was also fun. Oops.

Wow! Careful reading—and some re-reading—of all these entries was sure one hell of an education for me. I need time to digest, but I do realise one new thing:

At whatever level of technology/sophistication, self-defense and especially home-defense is a vital topic for every home and society, world-wide!

I’ll be upping my home defences and legal weapons—starting with purchase of a US Marine Corps ‘fighting knife’ I once saw in a “King of Knives” shop in Sydney!

Nikolai: a nasal spray bottle with bleach and gention violet in it. Spray that in someones face! Its legal and will drop them in their tracks + the gentian will stain the face for indentification. Is what i armed my daughters with when they first started going out with boys..

Sandi: Interesting, but I do not think it will get real big in North America. However, let me consider that and hope any assailants I encounter are ex-boyfriends and classmates of your daughters. That is guaranteed to scare hell out of them!

Then the “Purple People Eater” will get them? <grin>

Also, re knife idea…good for bluff, defensive stance maybe, but at my age (77) I’m more likely to end up stabbed myself! Be another ‘body, oozing light’ I fear. Nail clippers?

I dont know whether the lads that went out with my daughter were more worried about their “home protection” or the fact that their mother thought they should be armed against them!

If i tried to use a knife against someone i think my best hope is that they would fall over laughing and render themselves incapable for hurting me ;)

Thom-at 18:56

building resilient, capable communities is much harder work than battening down the hatches in armed bunkers, but, in the end, much safer and more satisfying. I don’t want to go through a terrible emergency alone. I’d rather have my neighborhood capable of going through it with me.

Americans love that myth of the “rugged individualist.” I don’t and find it scary, isolating and somewhat ridiculous. We’ve been surviving as communities for as long as we’ve been on the planet.

Let’s skip the hardware and work on the social networks.

I am sure glad I started this forum. There has been some excellent views and commentary. I hope all of you and your families stay safe in the case of a pandemic. I guess no one really knows how much ammo is enough. If a pandemic is extended for several months or more depending on the situation, a considerable amount of ammo could be expended. Just get the amount you feel comftorable with. Guns and ammo alone will not get you through a pandemic, however, it will definitely help in keeping you and your families safe.

Peej, What type of gun do you have? Let me know and I will advise you on how much ammo to get.

Hi Monkebiz - I’m still waiting for my license to be processed, it takes 2 months! I’ve been practicing with a borrowed Ruger .357 magnum double-action 6″ revolver with a speed loader. I like it a lot except lining up that speed loader hasn’t been very speedy. I don’t know the exact kind of ammo I’ve been using, the bullets have a metal jacket and a flat end—that’s the extent of my ammo knowledge. I’m definitely going to buy a .357 mag but I’d like to have something to compare with the Ruger so I’m doing some research.

At some point when I’ve got the funds, I’d also like to get a long gun. In my class I tried a Ruger 10/22 rimfire autoloader, it was so smooth and easy to operate but its probably not a good choice for a defense situation, right?

I would also like to point out that home defense is a great idea and it should be in all of our preparedness plans, but at the same time, after a Pandemic or similar natural or manmade disaster, at some point control will be restored, and I’m sure anyone who has killed someone, will be found and prosecuted. Keep in mind that by being prepared to kill to survive a threat, may also mean that you will be prepared to go to prison for it, afterwards. Owning a weapon and truly being prepared to use it, and to suffer the consequences are two separate things.

Snowhound, there is very little chance a prosecutor in this country would prosecute the scenario you just posited. Only place that is possbile is maybe San Fransisco but even then no jury would convict.

Well, I live in Texas and in the country,so you may be right to some degree, at least here, but say in New York City or the larger metropolitan areas, even Dallas, I wouldn’t bet on it. I’m pretty sure enough of the anti gunners would survive and make an attempt to re-establish their views. If it actually came to using a gun, I would, and I would bury the evidence. It would be a lot harder to conceal the fact that you had killed someone in suburbia. I certainly don’t want a bunch of non-educated people(in regard to guns) killing people out of fear and not feeling that there may be a consequence to their actions. The bad guys will have guns too, and those that don’t will be willing to take them away from the ignorant that do.

Peej, you have my setup. Frankly I am surprised you can handle it. The Ruger has quite a kick and generally is not recommended for women. From your description the ammo is likely hollowhead. This is an EXCELLENT gun for close range self defense (if you don’t punch yourself in the mouth from the kickback), the 6″ length insures accurate aim, and that type of bullet will stop the target no matter where you hit him. Practice with the fast load in the dark. I keep my weapon in the bedslat just where my hand naturally falls when I am sleeping, and the loader is tucked under the mattress. I can grab them both and assemble it under my blanket.

There are MANY lighter handguns available, and a short shoot from the hip shotgun is not a bad idea either. Consider a 9 mm for practice, and the .357 for personal defense.

anonymous – at 19:29 --- “ammo dosnt go bad”. Sorry, I tend to disagree. I had some older 9mm ammo that did go bad. It must be kept dry, in a low humidity environment. Living in New England for some time, I forgot about a box of ammo in an old gun cabinet. Tried to fire it about 3 months ago, and it had gotten moist from the high summer humidity in Connecticut. I had to give it up and get some fresh loads….

Bronco Bill- they make very inexpensive chemical de-humidifiers that we keep in our gun safes. Not only to protect the ammo, but to keep rust off of the guns as well.

Snowhound---I know, I know. I was dumb. We had moved from nice, sunny, dry California, and I hadn’t even thought of Silica packs. I had my weapons stored in airtight containers for the move, but that one box of ammo got left in the safe. Dumb and dumber…but I found out about New England humidity and what it can do…

Peej:”I’m definitely going to buy a .357 mag”

Make sure you read the Argentine economic collapse concerning revolvers. And I’ll second flourbug on getting a handgun for women that has less kick.

Thom: “building resilient, capable communities is much harder work than battening down the hatches in armed bunkers, but, in the end, much safer and more satisfying. I don’t want to go through a terrible emergency alone. I’d rather have my neighborhood capable of going through it with me.”

Agreed, that will be the best way. Afterall, no one can keep watch all the time, but if 20 neighbors spread the duty among themselves, then life would be almost a long vacation at home.

i live in southern calif fired 15 year old shotgun shells no problem very dry here if stored properly {in air tight ammo can} could last 100 years

Flourbug and Will - a quick note before I read Will’s revolver link:

I’m on the small-side but I must be stronger than I think because I didn’t have any real problems with recoil. I even used a .45 Colt (don’t remember the exact model)and the instructor’s jaw dropped at how well I hit the target. I don’t know why . . . my arm felt a little sore the next day. I had absolutely no experience with guns before so go figure, maybe I’m just a natural!

I tried a 9mm, I think it was also a Ruger. I liked it a lot but I figured I should get the larger caliber and I liked the flexibility of being able to use .357 or .38 ammo. I’m assuming that Will’s article is going to say a revolver is a bad idea, if so, I’m not totally married to the idea. Its just that I’ve been using one and its been working for me. On the other hand, I don’t want all the bullets to fall out of that speedloader if I’m in an emergency situation.

Snowhound - about being prosecuted - if I need to protect myself . . .I’ll take the chance. There are always going to be non-educated people killing people, it happens everyday. Whether or not the consequences are sufficient is a big complicated societal problem whether its pandemic violence or an accident involving a child.

The bad guys expect guns. Think unexpected. Improvised explosives are a challenge for troops in Iraq. Know your defence, your probable attacker. WiFi Cameras. Electronic battlefield. Think outside the box.

Peej, I can appreciate that, we are in the same boat. I just want people who are preparing for any eventuality, to do that. Prepare for ANY eventuality, that includes taking responsibility for their actions and if they act irresponsibly, then chances are, they are going to have to be ready for the repercussions of those actions. I guess by big concern is, that we are talking about a period of time of sickness, even a pandemic does not last forever. We aren’t discussing the total destruction of the earth, say if we new an asteroid was heading our way. :)

peej-You’re on the right track of thought with your handgun-if you can effectively handle it, get the largest caliber you can. We talked before about the interchangability of rounds with the .357/.38, and I’ve seen people become so proficient with their speedloaders that they can put a semi-auto to shame. I would NOT however recommend a smaller caliber “practice” gun and a larger “fight” gun. The gun you intend to trust your life to is the one you should be practicing with. In the case of the .357, go ahead and get the .38′s for using at the range for “draw and fire” practice, but spend plenty of time shooting those.357 rounds also. You want to be comfortable with the load-accuracy and energy delivered is what matters. Don’t let anyone talk you into a smaller caliber than you can handle.

WiFI camera will take a ok picture but not real good on stopping the bad guys. I don’t think they will be real concerned if you take their picture or not. Remembe IF it gets that bad people will be desperate.

“I’ve seen people become so proficient with their speedloaders that they can put a semi-auto to shame”

I don’t want to start a religious war, but how can someone with a 13 round .40S&W Glock (or 17 round 9mm) and 2 filled extra mags be shamed by someone with a 6 round revolver and an speedloader? Are you claiming speedloaders are faster than a mag swapout in such situations?

Peej, Get the most gun you can handle. A 20 ga shotgun is a good choice for most women. The 10/22 has almost no kick to it. It certainly can be lethal but it is shock that leads to death and the 22 just is not that great of a weapon for man sized animals. For the money I would go with an SKS or 223 weapon such as the AR-15 or mini 14 (an excellent all round weapon when scoped and mounted to a synthetic stock- improves accuracy). No one knows how this is going to turn out and many individual choices based upon who we are as human beings are going to have to be made and probably soon. We have the very real prospect of an Iran conflict being thrown into the mix and what all that entails. We do as well have a climate of escallating Earth changes against the background that none of us beyond our intuitive insights can factor in; and for those who study space weather well there is more still to be considered if Paul LaViolette, PhD is correct, not to mention various other incidental indicators of our day. It is my belief that we should have extra food and water for our neighbors. I’ve been in hundreds of firefights while in the Army and it in essence a tool of last resort while some thread of society still exist. For those of you who still don’t understand what HAARP pulses refers to it is in another way of saying scalar wave pulses which are extremely short duration pulses of electromagnetic energy lasting 20–25 billionths of a second delivering directionalized multi-terawatt (trillion watt) bursts. Tri-axial or triangulated scalar pulses are a way of broadly focusing this energy due to phase relationships of the pulsed emitters. Col. Tom Bearden states that they can be used for triggering seizmic faults, weather modification and mind control through frequency follow response (lethargy, suggestibility, disorientation). War when not defensive is by Christian definition satanic. Satan is stated to have come to steal and kill; wars by their very nature fit the bill nicely. Those who encourage wars are in essence satanically biased in make up,or deeply deranged. Many world economies are based largely upon arms sales, global conflict, and the decit of there populations to accomplish their underhanded goals by a power elite deeply enshrined and directed by secrit societies such as Skull and Bones, The Illuminate, and the upper teir of Freemasonry. Dr. William Deagle, MD has stated that two different segments of the H5N1 show signs of being tampered with. Many who report on the New World Order agenda state that population reduction is one of their primary goals, with figures ranging in excess of 80% of the world population. Most world leaders are members of secret societies with oaths that supersede benign governmental obligations to their populous. “You shall know them by their fruits.”, seems more evident than ever for this day and age. My advice to all-don’t shoot unless you have to. You may be killing someone not too different from yourself-beans and rice are cheap.

Those darn freemasons!!!

Not all Freemasons-the very top. Most are relatively speaking decent people.

Ohhh….Let’s not forget the Rosicrucians…

See “The Fan” video clip http://tinyurl.com/7lbf2 on Comcast and click on “Camera catches fight on crime.” You can see what happens when robbers encounter resistance. I hope that this shows: 1. You do not want to be anywhere in the vicinity. 2. Baseball bats are effective, and 3. Don’t be a hero, leave it to the pros. See the recommendations from professionals at the end of the clip.

“I don’t want to start a religious war, but how can someone with a 13 round .40S&W Glock (or 17 round 9mm) and 2 filled extra mags be shamed by someone with a 6 round revolver and an speedloader? Are you claiming speedloaders are faster than a mag swapout in such situations? “ Will- ever see Jerry Michalek?

The point is,in CQB, proficiency beats quantity-period. And yes, I have been in a room with people who could cycle 30 rounds ON TARGET faster than others in the room with semi’s-granted, this was a more advanced group than your basic firearms class, but the point is only reinforced by that fact.

I think the safest place to be is in Canada, Australia or other civilized country where people don’t buy into the cowboy complex and think shootin’ up and killin’ people are going to keep them safe as a family.

A well-guarded community is the way to go.

A family with thousands of rounds of ammo and an arsenal of weapons shootin’ and killin’ their neighbors who step on their lawn. Well, people are going to get rather irritated at them.

They will eventually be overcome if enough people decide it’s worth it to take them out. Those people will have guns too. Maybe soldiers even.

IF you’re not in a well-guarded and cohesive community, the next best thing is a low profile in a relatively safe area with some supplies buried and well-hidden.

The shoot ‘em scenario is insanity unless you are holing up with your own standing army behind a moat in a castle.

Thanks Pipes! You always have such great advice. The instructor in my class said I was doing really well with the .357 so I’m convinced I can handle it. The recoil felt like a “bounce” in my hand, if no one had mentioned it to me, I wouldn’t have given it much thought. The .45 was powerful but again, I didn’t feel as though I was going to let go, hit myself in the face, or fall on my butt. Maybe I have sticky hands. I think its about letting your hands and arms absorb the shock and not “fighting” it with tense muscles. And I’m so tired all the time, I’m never tense, it just happened naturally. Anyhoo . . wish I had the funds to buy 2 or 3 different guns—I hate making decisions.

I didn’t mean to sound like such a cheapskate about the two kinds of ammo. The last thing I want is to spend all this money and time and then have the .357 feel unfamiliar in an emergency. I’m willing to spend what’s needed in order to protect myself. I realize there are some things you just shouldn’t skimp on. Like shoes. Who knows, maybe I’ll be loading my own ammo soon!

P.S. did we ever determine how much ammo is needed?

Does anybody have any ideas for saferooms/escape/hiding or other sane and reasonable techniques for saving your and your family’s skin from determined maurauders (who are most likely to be your neighbors?) other than the shoot ‘em up gun battle scenario.

Say a mother with three children? The father is either gone, sick, non-existent or dead.

It makes me crazy when “anons” or anyone else drops in out of the blue and start tossing around vageries and out of context drivel.

Anyone reading this thread through would NOT see anybody promoting shooting someone over stepping on their lawn.

As far as our friends down-under and across the Atlantic go-many of them would beg to differ with the concept that they’re better off with their restrictive gun laws-violent crime has skyrocketed in both those countries since restrictions have been put in place.

And, BTW, if isolation is the prescription, how does one create a “cohesive and well-guarded community”? And how is that “community” going to help you in the middle of a home invasion at 2 am?

Wow, this thread got so busy all of a sudden!

Will - I just read that Argentine commentary: it was great and very helpful, like a survival checklist. But that guy should get the Pulitzer Prize in B.S. Give me a break: “please forgive me, my Engleesh is not so good” and by the middle of the page he’s saying “I believe it was Clint Smith who said ‘blah blah blah . . ‘“ or did I miss the part where he admits he’s never been to Argentina. Its still very good, almost overwhelming with the amount of information. Clearly he has a lot of knowledge to share.

Anon, stop playing games. You know that’s a ridiculous assumption.

I beg to differ with your assumptions and your facts. The US is far more violent.

And when I read through the thread, I see many very eager to play war games and fantasize about gun play without thinking out the consequences very thoroughly.

Some prefer facts and commonsense. __ http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/research/other_docs/factsheets/canus/Default.html NOTE: FIREARM CRIMES, CANADA VS. U.S. ISSUE

The following analysis compares levels of firearm crimes between Canada and the United States. Data for comparison are available only for firearm homicides and firearm robberies.

STATISTICAL HIGHLIGHTS

HOMICIDE (Table 1)

Rates for all homicides are 3.8 times higher in the United States than in Canada. For 1987–96, the average homicide rate was 8.8 per 100,000 people in the U.S., compared to 2.3 per 100,000 in Canada. A much greater proportion of homicides in the United States involve firearms. For 1987–96, 65% of homicides in the U.S. involved firearms, compared to 32% for Canada. Handgun homicide data are available for 1989–95. During those years, 52% of homicides in the U.S. involved handguns, compared to 14% in Canada. Firearm homicide rates in the United States are 8.1 times higher than in Canada. For 1987–96, the average firearm homicide rate was 5.7 per 100,000 in the U.S., compared to 0.7 per 100,000 in Canada. Handgun homicide rates in the United States are 15.3 times higher than in Canada. Based on available data for 1989–95, the average handgun homicide rate was 4.8 per 100,000 in the U.S., compared to 0.3 per 100,000 in Canada. Between 1987 and 1996, firearm homicide rates increased slightly (+2%) in the United States but decreased (−7%) in Canada. On the other hand, both countries reported a decrease in the overall homicide rate (−11% in the U.S. and −13% in Canada). ROBBERY (Table 2)

Rates for all robberies are 2.4 times higher in the United States than in Canada. For 1987–96, the average robbery rate was 238 per 100,000 in the U.S., compared to 101 per 100,000 in Canada. A greater proportion of robberies in the United States involve firearms. For 1987–96, 38% of robberies in the U.S. involved firearms, compared to 25% in Canada. In addition, the proportion of firearm robberies in Canada continues to decrease while the proportion in the U.S. has been stable in the last few years. Firearm robbery rates in the United States are 3.5 times higher than in Canada. For 1987–96, the average firearm robbery rate was 91 per 100,000 in the U.S., compared to 26 per 100,000 in Canada. Between 1987 and 1996, firearm robbery rates increased significantly (+19%) in the United States but remained unchanged in Canada. However, the overall robbery rates decreased 5% in the U.S. but increased 22% in Canada. SUMMARY

While homicide and robbery rates are significantly higher in the United States, firearm homicide rates and firearm robbery rates show even greater differences between the two countries.

To get back to the original question of this thread:

Just how much ammunition is enough in preparing for the upcoming pandemic.

Let’s say you have uninvited “guests” every night, for a possible pandemic duration of 2 years, and you’re using a semi-auto pistol. You get involved in a 10 second firefight in which you pop off 10 rounds of ammo.

10 rounds X 365 nights = 3650 rounds of ammo X 2 years = 7300 rounds of ammo. Per Gun.

Now, if you have two pistols, a shotgun, an SKS, AR-15, and maybe an M1A1 Abrams, THAT, people, is a LOT of lead/stell to haul around. All told, with these toys, 43,800 total rounds of ammo is what you’ll need.

If you have all that, make damn sure of two things: It’s all on the ground floor, ‘cuz anything higher probl’y won’t hold the weight, and it’s in an explosion-proof bunker.

Just my two cents on the original question at hand. ‘nuff said.

no one has mentioned,that if you buy and fire guns, they have to be cleaned and oiled. buy a good cleaning kit.use it often.

ID - that’s intense, I don’t want to have my mind controlled, its hard enough thinking my own thoughts . . . thanks for all the advice and food for thought.

Yeah, go away Anon . . . start your own thread, we’re busy trying to figure out how much ammo to get.

Have fun, boys. I do hope you survive and don’t have to kill people to do it

I think ideally, it would be good to have extra to trade with (oh, and share with your neighbors in the community!). Ammo might be like the new currency.

Okay, no hard feelings anon. I’m a girl by the way.

How many of you have ever shot another person. Why don’t you take the advise of people who have killed, dead, another human being before you start shooting off your mouth. You are going to get someone hurt with your BS.

Some fool is going to buy into half of your nonsense and then do something stupid. Show some responsibility and consider that many people read what you write.

Those who have killed others are not interested in firepower but become quite serious about how to NOT take a life.

I’m thinkin’ the reason the crime rate is lower in Canada than the US is ‘cuz it’s so much COLDER way up there. Things FREEZE!!!

I’d rather trade jelly than shells….

Peej – at 15:42 “I think ideally, it would be good to have extra to trade with (oh, and share with your neighbors in the community!). Ammo might be like the new currency.”

NO. ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Trade anything…trade your food, trade your mother-in-law, but DO NOT TRADE AMMO!! It might turn around and bite you, if you know what I mean. Let’s say you trade a box of 20 rounds of 9mm to your neighbor (whom you may not know very well), and he gives you 3 loaves of bread. How do you know he won’t come back with a loaded 9mm handgun and want his bread back???

Thank you Peej! Just wanted to share the wealth of some of my research. TV and news print are by far the greatest mass manipulators though. TV tends to induce alpha waves within the brain-most are about 25 times more suggestible while watching TV. News media are not required by law (here in the US) to be truthfull or accurate. Many expert within the field consider the US to be the most mind controlled country on Earth.

..unless they were stuffed shells with a thick marinara souce…

BroncoBill - LOL, let’s use your estimate as the absolute maximum amount of ammo that someone might store. If they have a humungous basement.

A gun is a great equalizer, empowering the weak and outnumbered against the strong and aggressive. That is all you need to know, other than the proper use of your weapon. It is a single woman’s savior. It is a family’s insurance. It is the community’s bulwark against the rule of gangs. It is American as Apple Pie. And may I never see the day that this right is ever abridged more than it is at the present moment.

JoeW is right! Protect yourself by all means, but to the degree that you can it’s far better to protect your family, friends, neighbors with extra supplies than extra bullets. Hopefully it will be a rough trip not a decent into Hell. When you start shooting you start getting shot at. Cooperate first! That said don’t be a fool with your life! Many many people would stick a knife in you during desperate times. The difficult thing is telling who. Most will touch their face when lieing.

Peej – at 15:54 I think so…maximum. ‘Specially if that M1A1 is sittin’ in your driveway!!!

Medical Maven - well said! I have always held that our society would be much more polite if the majority of people carried firearms.

I second that Medical Maven. We need to guard our rights or we won’t have them any longer. My new permit to carry just came in and I’m picking it up today after work. Now I can carry my own pistol to the range!! Need to practice practice practice.

Wonder what all these folks are eating out of their preps that make them bullet proof?

Anyone who thinks they can make it through firefight after firefight, day after day, month after month just does not have a clue.

The amount of ammo is not as important as to how and when to use it. The guns, ammo, knives, mace, etc. are the last line of defense. You need your friends, neighbors, community to cover your back if you want to make it through this event.

Bottom line it is really simple - you just have to be smarter than the bad guys, and lets face it, for the most part just by being on this site your already ahead of the game.

MM, I agree with you-to a point. We need to be tested and licensed to drive a car; the same should apply for guns.

Guns have a place in our society and so is responsible gun ownership. My comments are not about self protection it is about creating an atmosphere in which people think about guns as THE solution. There are many other solutions that precede the use of guns. Like it or not guns, and our attitudes are communicated to our children and those with child like minds. Read about Columbine http://tinyurl.com/ncw2b. These people read here as well as many other places and that is a very real problem. Several self protection mechanisms should be included at home and in the community, the last one is a gun.

Individual and family isolation in small groups is not and cannot be the only solution if there is to be a society. It is not about shoot and run, it is about surviving to keep one’s family and community alive and safe. It is not about the amount of firepower one can amass it is about creating a safe community in which to live and there are many ways to do that.

BroncoBill -

“DO NOT TRADE AMMO!! It might turn around and bite you, if you know what I mean. Let’s say you trade a box of 20 rounds of 9mm to your neighbor (whom you may not know very well), and he gives you 3 loaves of bread. How do you know he won’t come back with a loaded 9mm handgun and want his bread back??? “

hmmm, good point except he’d know he was walking into a gunfight for 3 loaves of bread. If he wants to be bad he should give you stale or moldy bread. There would have to be a minimum level of understanding or social contract for trading to occur. We might not have it, even with our neighbors.

ID – at 15:52 “TV tends to induce alpha waves within the brain-most are about 25 times more suggestible while watching TV.”

Hmmmmm….this would explain the television as a babysitter?!?

Where do you come up with this stuff? Please don’t say it’s available all over the Internet…I don’t believe half of what’s THERE!!!

You wanna talk about guns, how about the fellow trying to kill his wife in fear and anger with a 12 gauge. No shot was fired from more than 15 feet. The first time he blows her hand and part of her arm off. Second shot in the next room he hits her in the leg and takes out half the muscle in her left thigh. Third shot in the hallway is to the shoulder where he blows away part of the arm and shoulder. Then he has to chase this woman (who is still moving) into the bedroom where she falls to the floor and is cringing against the wall. He slowly walks over, holds her against the floor and the wall with his foot, and places the barrel against her forehead. When he pulls the trigger he blows her brains all over the wall, and takes off most of the right side of her head. Is that what you are prepared to do? Oh — this guy had been a deer hunter for many years.

JoeW-Sure, BUT, this thread is about ammo,guns,etc. Except for a couple of digressions into fantasyland, people are here (this thread) to discuss guns. Don’t get holier-than-thou and try and shut people up because they have never killed someone. This would be a very short discussion if that were a prequalification.

Niether is this a thread about preserving society before,during,or after a global crises-It’s about GUNS and AMMO! Why do some that come here try and dump their fear and loathing of guns on us? GO AWAY- don’t participate in a discussion that you know little about except what you feel. No one here is promoting taking to the streets shooting anything that moves. By and large they are talking about how to protect themselves and their families from what they fear could come to their doorstep, and in that moment, “society” will be the last thing to consider, and “society” will be the last thing that will come to their rescue.

And as a counter-point to some of the earlier posts visit here http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=78 , and take notes.

BTW, if the ladies out there would like some “real-world” common sense training (not firearms), check these classes out- http://www.nrahq.org/rtbav/rtbavfaq.asp and you knee-jerks shouldn’t throw up your arms and dismiss these links and my rant because they are NRA links.This is, after all, a thread about guns and ammo. Go start a “let’s all hold hands and hope the bad man goes away” thread, and I’LL drop by to rain on YOUR parade.

JoeW---calm down. A very graphic case…understood well. However, I think the majority of us here are more concerned about the OCCASIONAL possible intruder who MAY try to enter the household unwanted. More than likely not, but it’s always a possibility. Again, that’s what tight-knit communities are for. Get the word out to your neighbors, friends, local authorities even, that your neighborhood has formed a small “self-protection unit” and will patrol your immediate neighborhood on their own. A lot of police departments already have a system like this; they call it Neighborhood Watch. I’ve attended several meetings on this, and in a lot of smaller communities, the cops even provide the NW folks with a police radio for emergency use. Granted, if a pandemic strikes, the cops may not be available, but OTOH, a lot of cops gravitate to areas where “shots are fired”.

My post at 15:37 was a bit tongue-in-cheek. I don’t believe for a minute that anybody has the room, nor the money to invest in that kind of firepower. Besides, wouldn’t their Homeowner’s Association have something to say about a tank in the driveway?

These crime scenes are not on television. Wanna see it? How would you like to talk to the guy who says, “I was only trying to kill her, I didn’t think there would be so much blood.” Trained soliders, in a war zone sometimes freeze when face to face with the enemy. What are you going to do???

JoeW- Just read your last post, and you are now attemptimg to equate a lapse of sanity with self-defense. You lose credibility with every additional post. If anything, the visitors here should recognize the man described as the threat that they might be defending AGAINST. Stop trying to scare discussion away with ridiculous imagery.

pipes – at 16:52 — I do have to back JoeW up on his post: his question is “Are you prepared to kill another human being” in short order? Are you prepared to shoot first at someone while jumping and ducking and praying to God that you don’t get hit? I am, but it’s not about me. A lot of people do have this fantasy that they will protect their home by simply answering the doorbell with a loaded pistol or shotgun in their hands and don’t really know that if push comes to shove, they WILL freeze/delay for just the instant that an intruder needs to overcome them. There are a lot Rambo/Rambo-ettes out there who, at this point in time, have an attitude that they’re tougher than the other guy. But without proper physical training, and proper psychological training as well, most attitudes will change when the time comes.

I am an ex recon marine, I know and have used guns and I know what hell they cause. I am not anti-guns but I think that you can hurt yourself and others unless the are very well thought out. A few trips to a range and a basement full of amo is not going to make someone safe.

i haven’t fired a gun AT anything ,other then on a range in thirty years.i live in the mountains where there are actual wild animals,including the occasional rabid bobcat.there is virtually no crime. i have no intention of shooting anything or anyone. at anytime. i do have a 12 gauge loaded with oo next to my bed. why? just like prepping;just because i might need it. and as a writer once said”if it wants shooting at night, it wants buckshot”.

That is not ridiculous imagery, it is a true story and the man was paranoid, not psychotic. A paranoid is generally rational if you accept his first premise. I know the case as a forensic psychologist and it is only one of many

You guys and gals are a trip. I am enjoying sitting here imagining the looks of horror on the faces of the international Wiki visitors. They must think we’re ALL Freakin’ Rambos over here. Yee ha!

International folks: We Americans here are just bored of talking about how much rice and water we need to stockpile, so we’ve moved on to more exciting territory. Please don’t think you need to change your vacation plans if you were coming to the US this summer. We’re not shooting tourists over here! :-)

They must think we’re ALL Freakin’ Rambos over here. Yee ha! ;-)

They don’t and we don’t. Well, at any rate, we don’t.

Off to dinner with all my pacifist friends, ya’ll have fun. BTW The more you have been there the less inclined to go there again.

April — at 17:12 We’re not shooting tourists over here!

But, they do taste like chicken!!! :→><<

Well, we don’t shoot them as long as they don’t venture far from Disneyland and the like. But they get in the wrong neighborhood, and they’re on yiour own.

Note foreigners: If you’re lost in the rural USA after twilight, think twice about going up on anybody’s property. Some of those Rambettes shoot first and ask questions later. A gas station is a much safer option.

a – at 17:30

????????????? If panflu comes, I don’t think we’ll need to worry too much about tourists visiting here!!!

Can’t we all just get along?

Not unless they are French tourist then all bets are off!!------- Just Kidding. By the way I just was reading a great book about the American Revolution and we all forget that the first lives lost were Americans preventing the British from destroying their arsenal in Condord.

sorry I meant Concord.

oh gosh, I go out for an afternoon and all hell breaks loose.

Guns are usless without ammo. Katrina images on tv made me get a handgun I have lost faith in the government protecting me. I live in los angeles the lapd isnt going to protect me. I have doubts of them being able to protect with any speed now. So if i feel safer with my ammo and guns why not im not hurting anyone and dont want to. I just dont have faith in my community to protect me. I dont know my neighbors now. ITS LIKE THAT IN LA. People who are desperate can group up and do desperate things. If this thing hits and if food dose become a problem that would make me a possible target. I feel like survival is the most basic instinct. DO you think someone would just go away if they asked for food ? Would they bring there friends if they saw i wasnt starving? These thoughts trouble me. BESIDES I like shooting. Buying bulk ammo cuts the price down one third. try ammoman.com free shipping.

Guns are usless without ammo. Katrina images on tv made me get a handgun I have lost faith in the government protecting me. I live in los angeles the lapd isnt going to protect me. I have doubts of them being able to protect with any speed now. So if i feel safer with my ammo and guns why not im not hurting anyone and dont want to. I just dont have faith in my community to protect me. I dont know my neighbors now. ITS LIKE THAT IN LA. People who are desperate can group up and do desperate things. If this thing hits and if food dose become a problem that would make me a possible target. I feel like survival is the most basic instinct. DO you think someone would just go away if they asked for food ? Would they bring there friends if they saw i wasnt starving? These thoughts trouble me. BESIDES I like shooting. Buying bulk ammo cuts the price down one third. try ammoman.com free shipping.

sorry about the double post this sight is slow pushed button twice

This thread has more posts per 24 hours than any in the last fifty.

flourbug – at 18:13 — See what all you missed? We kinda sorta lost control….

guns and ammo are interesting

BroncoBill, its like hoplophobics vs Burt Gummer

put an electron microscope on my 44 blow away that virus

Okay flourbug----I hadda look that one up!! You are soooo right on!!!

JoeW,Bronco-In another thread weeks ago, I myself made a very deliberate point of the fact that having a gun for protection means having to consider in advance what you were going to do if… and what could you do if…peej,thorndawwgy,giraffe,and others were involved in that discussion I think. Anyhow,my point then, as it would be now, was that it was important to consider all these things in order to “get your mind right”-so that if the time came, you made the right decision-RIGHT AWAY. The only thing that can come of JoeW’s ridiculous (there I said it again) attempt to burn some over-the-top image into someones mind is doubt-at a time when there should be none. The gory consequences of shooting someone is not a valid consideration. Someone elses psychotic break is not a valid consideration. Whether you are “right” is a valid consideration, and that’s what should be figured out ahead of time, so that if the time comes, you act decisively, and so that you can live with the decision afterward.

As far as visitors here thinking we fancy ourselves a bunch of Rambos, I would say that that conclusion would be as flawed as tuning into one of the food threads and thinking we were all Wolfgang Pucks, or a Niman thread and thinking we were all Bill Nyes. The thread is what it is, and the people contributing are giving their input for consideration. If you have a different point of view, enlighten us- If you don’t like the subject matter , or have nothing constructive to contribute, go to another topic.

pipes---very good point, and well taken.

Hey pipes-

For the record, just wanted to say that I am not against this thread. It is an interesting diversion from the recipe threads, I can tell you that. I just wanted to point out that the foreign folks might not be able to relate to it and we might be scaring them. That’s all. Please continue.

I’m considering making a high-resolution recording of loud coughing and hook it up to a motion detector. Should do the trick.

It seems to me that a lot of Americans think of guns as a weapon of first resort. It scares the willies out of me. And, from my point of view, you sound just plain crazy. I have, like many Europeans, done my national service, and learnt how to use guns of various types. I never think of them as something I would like to bring to discussion table. They are guaranteed to escalate any problem into a very messy solution. And what is worse, there is no turning back, or restoring the life to someone you killed. Sad, really.

As for this particular thread, I guess you can’t keep Americans from talking guns, and self-protection, but it doesn’t sit all that well with people from other places around the world.

I had to smile at one or two comments as to how all this must look to non-Americans: e.g. Japanese, Australians… Firstly, hopefully, we will realize this is AMERICAN business, on your own soil, in your own conditions of society and historical traditions. If Aussies were armed to a similar level, I would be first in line to purchase a gun. Or two.

These comments scare me? YES. And so does panflu! And the collapse of distribution, and of social order! I guess the process of learning is painful, but don’t we all agree it is vital! A little pain now, from this thread, may well save my poor old backside later. Thanks to all of you!!!

If the discussion centers on how much ammo one needs for self-defense than one bullet should do it as you’ll be much less like to waste it to the benefit of those you encounter. For us living in wilderness where access to game will be means to feed ourselves than it isn’t a far fetched question. In this case a 22 rimfire and couple hundered rounds will keep you fed for quite some time.

European: Hey! Both you AND I are kind of sticking our noses into AMERICAN business, amidst an American audience and should, both of us, be polite or else just read quietly and vent our criticisms off-line to our respective countrymen, IMO.

This wiki is, fundamentally if not technically, rather a semi-private converesation. I’ll be thinking twice before I venture to comment in future.

As far as Americans not really being up to the task of defending themselves, if they are not trained by the military, I beg to differ. I have read the National Rifleman Association’s “American Rifleman” magazine for decades and in most issues there is a full page of brief newspaper accounts from around the country of armed encounters with the “bad guys”. Often the bad guys escape the hail of bullets, but they keep running out of the house. Other times the cops find a blood trail to the bad guy’s escape vehicle, and he shows up in the hospital later. And, of course, sometimes the homeowner or shopkeeper knows how to shoot, and the bad guy ends up on the floor. As an ordinary citizen defending himself and his family I would rather be alive and “troubled” than dead and free of any possible guilt. Time heals all wounds, except the ones that get you into a body bag. Those of us in our fifties know this to be true.

I have a hard time believing any specific characteristic is “American” or Brit or Tazmanian or whatever. Its a stereotype just like the one about Brits being aloof. I’m sure there are plenty of people around the globe who are interested in firearms and enjoy discussing them with other people who share their interest. Having gun control laws doesn’t stop people from being interested or obtaining a gun if they really want one. If any of the Americans here started using disrespectful stereotypes to describe people from other countries, there’d be even more finger pointing. Please stop the stereotypes, its just as destructive as you believe gun ownership to be.

Nikolai,

No need to censor yourself. We like you Aussie types.

European- Guns have been discussed here as the absolute last resort- Just because we care to discuss them before we need to use them doesn’t make us sad, it makes us thoughtful. The time to consider whether or not you need a gun is not as your front door is being kicked in. Of course, the enlightened “European” approach has been (in the last 100 years)to let aggression go unchecked until it comes and kicks in your front door, and then call the Americans, with all their guns and backbone.

If you wish to be a victim, be it of a flu bug or a felon, that is your decision. If you wish to leave your survival and the survival of your family in the hands of the next miscreant that comes along, that is your business. But please spare us the hand-wringing.

One more comment then it is off to other things. What are you going to do when the man breaking in your door is accompanied by his wife and kids? What will you do after you kill him and his wife and kids are standing in the street?

JoeW: It will be one of the countless “no win” situations that we all will face with a high CFR pandemic. War is Hell and so are pandemics.

April, this is your fault. You shouldn’t encourage me, but…

Sydney has a population of just over four million. In the worst case scenarios we, and JoeW, are contemplating, I fear there may be a million men-with-their-wives-and-kid standing in the streets. Just in this one city.

Go ahead and laugh, all, at this old fart talking tough, but I will defend my door and my 12 weeks of supplies, fiercely, without regard to injury or even death to such man, or men.

Let me think about this. A man, his wife, and his child have come to steal the food that keeps a frail old man, a paralyzed woman in a wheelchair, and a severely retarded boy alive. They could walk behind my house into 6000 acres of wilderness state park and catch all the yummy trout, bass, aligator, snake, iguana, they want and serve it with swamp cabbage, sea grape, mulberry, yucca, artichoke, and purslane. There is an endless supply of water. I am going to assume many homes in my neighborhood are dark because the occupants have died. I am also going to assume that this family had to walk past several food stores on the way into my development. But for whatever reason, this particular family prefers to steal food from invalids who are unable to run away, unable to get more food for themselves, and totally dependant on the resources we havs stockpiled to keep them alive.

Oh my gosh, what a difficult decision. I just don’t know what I would do!

We went through three hurricanes in 04. About two weeks was the longest we were without power. We were the only persons in the neighborhood with gas and a generator. Had the power not come back on, in time it would have gotten ugly. Family and a close circle of friends are the best way to cope under those conditions. Forming a neighborhood militia would be the next logical step. If we hunker down in fear of the flu, cohesion will be lost. Then we are on our own. A Mosberge pump cut down to 20 inches is my weapon of choice. The first three rounds are buck shot the last two are number eight bird shot. They go into the barrel in reverse order. Bird shot has less penetration through walls, a real danger with family in the house. If someone starts to break in. Locate your people and get in a corner. Identify your enemy before you shoot. The last thing you want to do is kill your child who came home from college to check on you. It’s hard to hit a moving target at close range even with a shotgun. If you are lucky and win, you are now the proud owner of whatever weapons the bad guy was carying. I suspect we will run out of food before we run out of bullets. Buy a case if it makes you feel safe, but if you survive that many fire fights you will be one real desperado.

JoeW- I’ll repair my door.

You staged the scenario-You framed the question (once again ridiculous),so there you go-I’ll repair my door.

Cloud9- Please ,for the love of all that is good and holy, do not mention the dreaded “M” word again ;} It’s a downward spiral into semantics and feel-goodism.

Pipes: Regarding your comments on the “dreaded “M” word”. Thanks for my best laugh of the day. I am still chuckling.

flourbug – at 22:13 — “They could walk behind my house into 6000 acres of wilderness state park and catch all the yummy trout, bass, aligator, snake, iguana, they want and serve it with swamp cabbage, sea grape, mulberry, yucca, artichoke, and purslane. There is an endless supply of water.” Why won’t they go after all that scrumptious fresh food? Because it would take work. And at the desperation stage, NOBODY wants to work for something they might just be able to take from someone else.

Cloud9 – at 22:19 — “If you are lucky and win, you are now the proud owner of whatever weapons the bad guy was carying.” You’re also the proud owner of a dead body or two on your living room floor.

pipes – at 22:32 — “do not mention the dreaded “M” word”. you mean Militia or Mossberg?

Nikolai—Sydney – at 20:02 — I think a lot of us ‘merican types really do need some input from you good citizens of other countries and cultures, just to keep us thinking about things in different perspectives. Please DO comment on what you read here and on other threads…we do live in a WORLD community after all.

Now I need to take a class self-defense against the anti-gun ownership people!

I am a native Floridian and live in a small town. Hurricane lamps and camp stoves are nothing new to us. We knew the phone lines would go down and we knew we would lose power. Cable went out. We lost water. What we did not expect was the loss of cell phones. We were isolated with no com but the radio. It took FEMA about 4 days to show up and we were not under water. The Big Easy was in a deeper well. FEMA started passing out MRE’s, ice and water at the agg station and the local community college. A lot of the people needed the food and water, fortunantly we did not. I saw one national guardsman during the whole ordeal and almost no police. They had no gas because the pumps would not run. The lesson learned is if the grid goes down you are really on your own. We had no looters because we were not seriously damaged and because all the good old boys in my neigborhood are very well armed. I used the M word in the same sense as it was used in James Town. If a threat appears, we will form a neighborhood watch to deal with it. The sad thing that New Orleans taught us was that with a total system collapse, some of the best armed predators are the police. I may be surprised, but with a pandemic, I really don’t imagine bands of thugs assaulting my home whether they be wearing police blue, army green, or gangster colors. In 1918, the crime rate dropped. As in previous storms, we will look after our family first and then our community. In time we all die. The real question is how did we live.

Cloud9: I suspect you’re right. In 1918, major cities had enpty streets — not a car or a pedestrian anywhere to be seen — much of the time. Like ghost towns. And children starved to death in their homes after their parents died of flu because no one intervened. Knocking on anyone’s door was a huge risk. Breaking into anyone’s occupied house would be a huge risk. I suspect a loud cough is the most potent repellent. It does behoove us to encourage our municipal authorities to have some plan to distribute basic food and water for those in dire need. Could save a lot of woe and reduce policing crunch.

Home defense in Australia? What have I got to work with? No real weapons. I’m elderly and not very mobile. But I still have a wicked sense of humour…. So:

I am preparing well in advance a crude, “desperate-looking” sign to tack on my front door: “No food no water dying of flu beware of vomit and lung blood pleez bury us decent”

If it’s charitable folk knocking, public services, I’ll just say we were miraculously saved from death by…mayonaisse and garlic.

Yank mates, don’t complain to me if you wet yourselves laughing! Buy another box of hollow-points! LOLOL Cheers!

I would also like to point out that in 1918, people owned guns and there is no evidence that I have seen that roving bands of gangs, or individuals, used force anywhere. I think even the “bad guys” stayed home out of fear or because they were battling influenza too. Bad guys have families and friends too. >;)

“pleez bury us decent”

mayonaisse and garlic!

You are a trip, Nikolai!

Will someone help me up off the floor?

Think people, when there is a pandemic, the “smart” people will hole up… even for just a couple of weeks. They will live on what supplies and condiments they can scrounge up. The less desirables will take advantage of the early fears to do their looting and acting stupid. They will do this in gangs, not as individuals. By the 3rd week of a local pandemic, when desperate folks start getting outside to find more supplies, the last of the hoodlums will be dying off from their early “roaming”. People will then be able to get food and supplies on individual an individual basis. It is the week 4 and 5 that the normally good folks may start getting into personal survival mode and becoming dangerous themselves. But… don’t forget that these people will be the smarter more resourceful folks and they are likely to be more humane as well. Bartering will return as the chief way to get things you want and need, rather than an all out gunfight. The quick to fire folks would have died off a few weeks ago.

Glad I live in Florida. Year-round food supplies available. Citrus, Fishing, Hunting.

A few years ago my brother and I were walking from a courthouse to the parking garage. We went around a corner and saw five tough looking 20-something men coming at us. Assuming my brother and I were a couple, they started making comments about us, calling us obscene names, and making gestures. The man in front wasn’t saying a word. He was steadily staring in my brother’s eyes as he flipped back his coat to show a cheap handgun stuck in his belt. My brother flipped back both sides of his coat, showing he was much better armed, and he flashed the guy a great big smile. The man nodded, smirked, and let his coat fall back to where it was. We walked by each other without an incident.

It reminded me of the scene in Crocodile Dundee where a NYC mugger threatens him with a switchblade and Dundee pulls out his bowie knife and amiably says, “That’s not a knife. THIS is a knife.”

I am not going to shoot anyone who ASKS me for food. That’s absurd. I’ll either give them something to eat or tell them I can’t help them and point them in the direction of someone who can. Put yourself in their shoes - if you have kids to feed would you risk getting killed over a can of soup? I wouldn’t. Its the people who will come into your house for your big screen tv, your jewelry, and your cash that are dangerous. But those people will follow the path of least resistance. Secure locks, lights, and a neat well cared for home let people know you value what you have and have taken precautions to defend your family. Putting a sign up on your door that you’re sick isn’t going to work. These are Predators. They smell weakness and roll right over you. Put your chin up, walk softly, and carry a big stick.

This might be a little off topic, but we’re all concerned about the potential dangers associated with inexperienced or irresponsible people using firearms. I’d like to get the opinion of experienced folks on what is considered sufficient experience — aside from joining the army. I’m genuinely curious, as someone who is just starting out, so please don’t misinterpret my question: what would I have to do in order for you to consider me experienced enough?

Peej - In my opinion, take a firearms safety course from a registered instructor. Be familiar with the weapon you choose, by that I mean know how it operates and how to load it and clean it. Practice regularly so that you are familiar with what happens when you pull the trigger.

Peej ASKED:

>what would I have to do in order for you to consider me experienced enough?

1. Take a gun handling safety course or study safety manuals to the point that you can know the THREE BIG RULES (“ALWAYS treat a gun as if it’s loaded, even if you know it’s not”; “NEVER point a gun at something you are not willing to shoot/destroy/kill”; “KNOW what’s in your field of fire - in front of the target, beside the target, and behind the target - before you shoot” (that’s the one Dick Cheney had problems with…) Some people add a fourth rule of “KEEP YOUR $%^&#@!!! FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL JUST BEFORE YOU SQUEEZE IT!!” but I’ve always thought that was implied in the other rules, as you don’t want an accidental discharge/hole in you or anybody else due to a finger twitch).

2. Know your gun. You don’t have to be able to field strip it or take it apart and put it back together blindfolded, but you should know how to handle and use it without posing a danger to all and sundry. Things like, where the safety is, how to load AND unload the gun, proper firing stance and grip so firing the gun doesn’t hurt your hands or knock you on your butt.

3. Go to a firing range and FIRE the darned thing. Know what it sounds like, how much it kicks, where the bullets go when you aim it and how to aim it to make them go where you want them to… Nobody knows how to effectively use a hammer or sewing needle or any other tool without practice, and that’s all a gun is. A tool. Not a magic wand or an implement of Satan, but just a device you can use for certain purposes. Treat it like that, and you’ll be halfway to mastering it.

Nikolai—Sydney – at 09:20 Oh My Gawd!!!! Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off!!!!!!!!!

Pick up a book on hunter safety. They have a lot of information on types of fire arms and general gun handling. Most modern fire arms come with a little simple book. Read. Go down to walmart and pick up a bb gun. Get a box of bb’s. Take a metal bottle cap. Punch a hole in it. String it from a tree branch in the back yard. Back up 10 paces. Get a glass of lemonade and a lawn chair. Have at it. When you get to the point that you can hit the bottle cap on the swing, you will be where you need to be.

Hillbilly Bill, FW and Cloud9 - Thank you so much for the advice. I took a class in gun safety at the range in my town, we all received books called “Basics of Pistol Shooting”. The range is going to give a self-defense class for women later this spring, but I’ve been thinking about taking karate or something like that.

Cloud9, I wish I could shoot BB’s in my backyard, but my neighbors wouldn’t like it, we live kind of close together and our backyards all attach. (I thought about it, though). I’d like to get a hunter safety book, maybe I can find something a little more advanced than my pistol book.

Here’s what I want to know: My sense is that I can take the classes, practice at the range, and still not have the kind of experience that I think the people here have been talking about. Let’s say I take that self-defense class and practice 2 hours per week, Would you say I didn’t have the experience to deal with needy/desperate people during a pandemic who may or may not be armed? Would you want me in your militia?

Sure you can join :)

Peej, you will never have enough experience to shoot a starving human being.

Peej - Never having been in the situation you describe, (thank goodness), I really don’t know how well I will do and I have been shooting guns and hunting since I was 10. The best you can do is prepare. You will be in a lot better shape than someone who did not.

“Shouldn’t a few boxes of slugs for each of your weapons do it?” Michael Donnelly

I agree Michael.

I hope we never need our guns during any of this but most of us likely won’t need more than a few boxes of ammunition per gun even if we did. I personally feel that if we need more than that we have more trouble than we’re going to be able to handle on our own anyway.

Since my mind wandered due to the sheer length of this thread I didn’t read it all, but have any of you considered getting any bird shot for those shot guns? It might be useful. Don’t forget the gun cleaning supplies either. A dirty gun isn’t worth a darn.

In the old days, we shot 1000 rnds pistol and 10 rnds shotgun to qualify each year. Those of us who liked to shoot shot much more than that each month. In those days the state was buying the ammunition. The bb gun is cheap and will build the necessary hand eye coordingation. That’s how I taught my son 20 years ago. I suppose video games will do the same thing. As others have mentioned, you need to shoot your weapon on a range to get the feel of it. Hold a shotgun tight against your shoulder. Don’t close your eyes. I still have images of a trooper buddy of mine who talked his wife into shooting his 44. She shot his brand new pistol once. Dropped it on the concrete and walked off the range.

Okay, it sounds like I’m doing what I need to do, thanks everyone. There’s one more thing I need to practice: thinking like a bad guy. Should I watch more TV?

I know this thread is long but I was afraid to start a new gun thread.

Peej---go out and rent a bunch of old John Wayne movies---THAT should put you in the “bad guy” frame of mind. But one caveat---the good guys ALWAYS won!!! :-)

One of the advantages of a pump action .16 gauge is that the mere sound of cocking it will cause most bad guys to re-think their behavio(u)r. I don’t expect to need more than a couple of rounds.

Peej,

You only need to watch 24. Everything else is a waste of electricity (IMHO).

:-)

Melanie, I’ve been thinking about it, and couldn’t it be just as likely that a bad guy hears that sound and automatically starts shooting? Maybe a bad guy would run if he wasn’t armed. I don’t know. as I said before, I need practice thinking like a bad guy.

April, at first I thought you meant “24″ like “24/7″ and I thought “wow, that’s really good advice” LOL!!!!

BroncoBill - I love old westerns, but the bad guys are always sooooo dumb! I need more of a challenge (no offense).

Folks — Airsoft-type pistols are not too bad for indoor, city practice. The better ones a quite accurate at short range, they cycle and feel a lot like your real pistol, and the safety operates similarly. They are no replacement for practice with the actual gun (they don’t kick or go “bang!”), but they can help develop good habits and break bad ones… Let’s pray all we ever shoot are targets.

Yes I agree…cut outs of Tessa “Greedy grabby” Jowell for example. We could shoot the bribe money right out of her hand.

Peej —

Sorry, sometimes I forget that not everyone is obsessed with Jack Bauer!

Peej---for “smart” bad guy movies, try any of the Harrison Ford “Clear and Present Danger” flicks! But, they’re still pretty dumb if Indie Jones can get ‘em!! :-)

If you own a firearm you should practice,practice,practice. The most dangerous people are the ones who own some but do not understand how to properly use them. Loading and unloading can be the most dangerous time for you and your family. Don’t shoot yourself in the foot or some loved one.

Who is Jack Bauer?

http://www.fluwikie.com/index.php?n=Forum.JustHavingAJackBauerMoment

Thanks. Never saw the show. I thought he was some sports celebrity or something.

Nikolai—Sydney – at 09:20

Already have fifty pounds of garlic, so that isn’t a problem, but was that the real mayonaisse or the miracle whip variety? Gotta know so I can stock up:-)

I see only three possible uses for ammunition: self-defense, hunting, and barter.

For self-defense, the shotgun is IMO the best choice for close-range encounters. I don’t care what guage you have or plan to buy. As our vice president recently demonstrated, even a rather small bore 28 guage shotgun with qual shot can knock a grown man silly at 30 yards. Not likely that he’s going to get up and come after you again. Personally, I prefer my 12 guage, but that’s quite a kick for a smaller person, for whom a 16, 20, or 410 might be a better choice. Nice thing about the 12 guage is that you can buy quail shot cheap on sale at Wal-Mart or sporting goods stores and stockpile plenty a little at a time. It’s also a very common guage, so there is no such thing as too much ammunition because it can also be used for hunting and barter. This leaves more cash available for stocking up on tuna and chicken soup. The shells last for years, so you don’t have to worry about deterioration. I may buy some 00 buckshot or solid slugs for hunting (or stopping maurading elephants), but don’t see a realy urgency to stock a lot of different loads. At close range, whatever you hit with a shotgun firing any kind of load is going to turn to “pink mist” and disappear. That tends to discourage any further asocial behavior.

A handgun is also useful for self-defense because it can be concealed when you absolutely have to go out. Get a shoulder holster, which will make it much more comfortable to carry or access if you need to. Handguns are heavy and if you just stick it in your belt it will either a) fall out, b) slide down into your pants, or c) blow off your family jewels. There have been some very knowledgable discussions on calibres and loads in previous comments, but with all due respect I’d like to point out that any handgun is better than none at all, any calibre is better than nothing, and people should buy what they can afford. I like the 9mm Ruger semi-automatic for speed of firing, the 17-round clip, and speed of reloading, plus the hollowpoint slugs are less likely to travel through the walls and into your neighbor’s house. But I’d settle for a .22LR in a pinch. A .22 is a lot cheaper to buy than some .357 or .44 hand cannon, the ammunition is dirt cheap (1000-round bricks are about $10 at Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Big 7) so you can practice a lot without thinking that every shot is costing you the equivalent of a Big Mac with super-size fries and a Coke. Admittedly, a small calibre handgun won’t blow a hole the size of a dinner plate through an attacker, but getting hit by a small-bore firearm is no laughing matter. It would take a carefully placed shot to kill an attacker, but hit him anywhere at all and it will certainly ruin his month. Any you’ll probably feel better about wounding somebody just enough so he can crawl off somewhere else and leave you alone rather than spraying his viscera all over your front porch. Another advantage of a .22LR handgun is that the same ammunition can be used in a .22 rifle, which provides more accuracy at longer range and can double as a hunting rifle. If need be, I could live quite comfortably plinking squirrels off my back deck.

A final note on self-defense. Practice religiously. Take a gun safety course if you are new to firearms. Practice all shooting positions including shooting from the hip, which may be the only option you get. I recommend the extra investment of buying a pump action (not CO2) BB or pellet gun to practice your aim at low cost. And then rent “Taxi Driver” and watch it again. Rewind the end scenes to see what guns do to people when they are shot. Repeat until you have erased the John Wayne “It’s only a flesh wound” and Jesse Ventura “I ain’t got time to bleed” memories. Shooting people is not pretty and not something you want to do lightly.

When buying your firearms, think about duel use for your ammunition. Having different calibres increases the amount of ammunition you have to stockpile.

For hunting, the shotgun provides a good second option for anything from small game to larger mammals, providing you have the right loads available, although during an avian flue pandemic I doubt that I’d be hunting ducks or Canada geese or any wildfowl at all. Best for squirrels and rabbits. A .22 rifle is also good for small game, and has less of a retort so it would attract less attention in a suburban area. I also recommend a more powerful long rifle for bigger game if you’re in or near open country. Some folks have discussed the SKS and AR-15, but I prefer a simple old WWII Mauser 8mm. You can buy surplus ammunition cheaply in 1000 round spam cans and have enough to last you for the rest of your life. I bought my 8mm for $175 and even though it’s 60 years old, the Mauser action works as smooth as silk. As for power, this thing could put a bullet through an engine block at 300 yds. The downside of military surplus ammunition is that it is full-metal jacket, as specified by the Geneva Convention, so it tends to go through a lot of things without mushrooming. This means that if you’re hunting, say deer, and don’t get a kill shot, you could spend the rest of the day tracking down a wounded animal. On the other hand, if you hit an artery, organ, or bone, you game is unlikely to go far thereafter.

And as for barter, more common calibres like 12 guage and .22LR are more likely to be in demand as time goes on and the economy goes belly up. They can be used as barter, just like toilet paper, cigarettes, alcohol, and chocolate. Even if you choose not to own a gun, a couple boxes of shells could come in handy when you run out of garbage bags or bleach and need to make a trade with a neighbor.

As for the marauding gangs, I am less concerned about them than some people on this board. The last time I had the flu I was definitely not in the mood for marauding, or anything else for that matter. So such gangs, if they do come, will either consist of people who haven’t had the flu yet (but are likely to since they are being exposed to others who may have it) or people who have had the flu and survived. That reduces the potential numbers considerably. My greater concern is marauding packs of dogs. As we saw after Katrina, many pets were abandoned by their owners, or their owners died, so they had to scavenge for food. We’ve occasionally had problems with dog packs up here in the country, and I think it could get much worse during a pandemic. Could be something we’ll have to deal with every time we need to leave the house.

Wow, every day somebody brings something up on these forums that I hadn’t considered before. Packs of dogs could be a real possibility in our suburban neighborhood. I guess I can hope that they would help bring down the rabbit overpopulation in our area. OK, so would a ping in the butt from a BB gun be enough to drive off a hungry dog? I don’t relish having to garden in the yard with my husband standing guard with the shotgun!

Regenes, You are right on the money. Good advice. Another arsenal refurbish that is on the market right now is the Soviet Mosin Nagant carbine. I picked one up a a gun show a month ago for $100. The ammo was $10 for a hundred rounds. These old bolt action rifles served their armies well in the 1940′s. I don’t think your local walmart will have ammo. Look for ammo on the web. It can be mail ordered. As for dogs back on the farm we had a problem with them killing new born calves. They are smart and not afraid of humans. They hunt in packs. Beware of the leader that comes up wagging his tail. I am told they are not bad with a little rice and soy sauce. My Jack Russel was a great burglar alarm during the last hurricanes. The cubbard would have to be bare for quite a while before I would eat him.

Oh, this is a BIG pet peeve of mine. People in cities buy breeds with a reputation for aggression, tease them unmercifully to make them mean, and the first time they bite a member of the family, they are taken out to the country and abandoned. Farmers drive them off or leave poison out. They end up in the forests and turn feral. They hunt in packs - and they DO kill livestock, pets, and attack people. You can’t walk our property in NY without a gun because of DOGS, not because of bear or bobcats. My neighbor was ripped up by a pack (so badly she spent four months in the hospital) and then they came to our property and attacked me and my three year old son. My husband shot and killed six of them. They attack and eat each other, they die of disease, and get hit by cars and trucks when they wander out onto the road. I can’t begin to tell you how many cats and dogs I have rescued. It is heartbreaking when a diseased cat crawls out of the woods and sits on your porch, huddled and freezing, just to be near humans when it dies, or you see some poor mutt at the edge of the woods, wagging his tail and cowering at the same time… he wants to come near but he’s terrified of people.

Yeah, dogs will be a problem in several ways - they are going to die in homes when the owners bug out and leave them behind. They are going to die in homes when their owners die of panflu and there is no one to feed them. They will escape from yards and buildings and form packs and hunt on their own, breaking through barriers, digging up buried supplies, ripping open body bags and trash. They can get infected with panflu and possibly carry it to humans. The worst of it all is, people will WANT to help these poor pets, and in doing so may risk their lives or their families. On the flip side, I am sure a lot of healthy animals who lost their homes will be killed out of fear of infection too.

flourbug, we are in Ulster County, were are you from.

Quoth the Raven, An overpopulation of rabbits could be a good thing. If the panflu doesn’t mutate to the rabbit population, you’ll have an ample supply of fresh meat. Rabbit stew if quite palatable (and sold at a premium in some French restaurants), so having many targets only increases your chances of a fresh entree for dinner. And rabbits are easy to skin and gut, even if you’ve never done it before.

Just cut off the head, slice along the ventral axis and up each limb, pull off the skin, and cut out the bowels. Soak in in little salt water to clean and remove residual blood. Add spices to taste as it’s a bit gamey in flavor, but not nearly as intense as raccoon. Raccoons you have to boil until the meat falls off the bone, then slaver with an intense sauce to cover up the garbage odor from all the crap that they feed on. In either case, scrape off the pellets, soak in salt water, then rub with the brain matter you saved from the heads. Could come in useful for clothing or a comforter if things get rough.

And no, I don’t think a ping in the but would drive off a dog pack while you are gardening. Dogs have an unusually high tolerance to pain when in the fight-or-flight mode. You’ll just piss them off. A .22 or shotgun would work much more effectively, and you may live to tell about it.

Don’t get me wrong. I love dogs. I have two now, and have had three previously. But dogs are pack animals and it doesn’t take much for them to answer the “call of the wild.” Trust your own dogs, but be very suspicious about any dogs running in packs. Flourbug makes some good points about the way dogs are dumped in the country, then become a problem worse than the local fauna. Up here we have blackbear, mountain lion, coyotes, and feral dogs. It’s the feral dogs that concern me the most.

Regnes— Thanks for the very detailed description of rabbit handling. I’ve been thinking it would probably be a good skill to learn to hunt small game. I guess that means I’ll have to learn to shoot something other than my .45 Smith and Wesson 1911, which I suspect wouldn’t leave much rabbit left to eat.

I think maybe people trap rabbits instead of shooting them. When I was a kid, my country aunt used to babysit me. Everyday we went around checking the wooden rabbit boxes that she had set out for catching rabbits. At the time I did not realize that she was catching them for food. She never let me watch her kill them or anything. Here is a plan for building traps like she had.

http://mdc.mo.gov/nathis/woodwork/ww10/

The Air Force Survival Training Manual contains a tremendous amout of needful information about small game, traps, snares, edible plants and the like. Mine was published in 1978 which pretty well dates me. Here is a more modern edition. I assume it is as useful.

http://www.armynavyshop.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?store_code=army-navy-shop&screen=PROD&product_code=rc1408

The price is $8.00. I have no connection to the above source, but for those of you who were not raised on a farm, it might be of use to you.

A question for our European friends. Are you precluded from owning primitive weapons? If not, Dixie Gun Works has a number of black powder reproductions. A cap and ball revolver would give you six tries at your target. If you can afford a LeMatt, you have the mother of all assault weapons, nine 44 rounds and one 20 guage shotgun all in one pistol.

Wow! What a read… I just finished reading all these posts and feel I must make a couple of comments.

Regnes - you are definitely on target (no pun…) with your post;

As far as weapon/ammo recommendations: Think of buying a common firearm in a caliber that is also common. I would recommend a shotgun if you can only buy one. The Remington 870 is one of the most widely circulated reliable shotguns ever produced. Spare parts and accessories should be widely available. Wal-Mart usually stocks the 870 in a two barrel combo that gives you a rifled slug barrel as well as a long shot barrel.

Bird shot will stop a person, but can be ineffective on a target wearing thick clothing. I would not recommend slugs in a household environment - too hard to hit your target and the slug can travel through several walls. Instead,I would go with something like #4 buckshot. It has more energy for more “knockdown” power and will penetrate better than birdshot but not as far as a slug.

Practicing can not be over emphasized. It is impossible to practice too much.

Buy as much ammo as you can. I don’t think you can have too much. Not because I think you will be having a shootout every night, but because I think it will be a long long time before you will be able to buy more. If you can, get set up to reload your own ammo. It is not difficult or expensive to get into.

We must look at this worst case scenario in truly worst case terms or not at all.

Personally, I believe the flu will become secondary to the economic/societal meltdown that would come with such a pandemic in this day and age. Realistically it could be YEARS before infrastructure is returned to any semblance of what it is now (if ever). I would consider buying ammo not only in the caliber/guage of your firearms, but also in other common calibers. Someone made the comment that if you have to shoot someone, you would then end up with whatever arms they carried. What good would that do you if you had no ammo for them? Also, barter will be the means of trade (plus of course gold and silver- everyone should at least buy a few rolls of silver coins) and you can’t go wrong buying 12 or 20 guage shotgun shells or extra 9mm, .45, .223, 30–06, .270 etc. These calibers are very common and will be worth quite a bit to anyone who needs them and doesn’t have them.

If you can afford to, consider buying an extra shotgun. I know I have family that don’t take this threat seriously, yet they all know that I will be ready. And yes, I will have extra provisions for them (even though I’ve told them I wont provide for them….). I want to make sure that when they show up at my door they wont just be eating my food, they can also help with defenses even if I had to provide the weapon!

It is important to remember that no sane person wants the worst case scenario to happen, but any sane person should recognize the dangerous possibilities and prepare for there family in whatever way they are able.

Thank you God for placing me in the United States where I still have the right to defend my family!

why guns, why not a taser?

Taser is not good in a crowd/riot scenario and has to be used in a much closer proximity than a gun allows. Plus, it’s a lot easier to miss your target with a taser (unless it has a laser sight) than it is with a shotgun.

Plus it only disables someone for a short period of time (less than 1 minute). The makers of Tasers assume you are out and about somewhere, and this will allow you to escape.

Eric, missed your post yesterday. We have a few hundred acres and small cabin near Ithaca. My mom bought the property about 30 years ago. We used it for vacations and such, and I lived there full time from Jan 2002 to Nov 2003.

If a total meltdown occurs, I will be dead in about a year when the meds run out that control my hypertension. What I write here is for those that will still be alive. If total melt down is where we are going, then look at reloading and think in three general weapons types. Revolvers, pump shotguns and bolt actions. A person can acquire a lot more reloading components than manufactured ammunition with the same money. As the quality of ammunition goes down, the above mentioned actions are a lot more forgiving. Automatics require specific chamber preasures to cycle. When buying components primers are the single most dear. Cases are second. Projectiles are third. In a pinch all of the above mentioned actions will shoot black powder. The recipe can be found in any old encyclopedia. A little Lee Loader for a single caliber can be picked up for around $15. A bullet mold is a little more expensive. A plumbers lead pot, a gas stove and a dipper and you are in business. In a pinch, you can make a bullet mold out of hard wood. It will work for a couple of pours. Using the same casings in the same gun will make them last for years. If you go this way, a cheap hollow point can be made by putting a piece of paper half way in the mold. The lead will form in two halves in the nose and be solid in the base. When hitting a hog, it will fold back on itself and make a much larger hole. For calibers, I would stick with 12 guage, 357 and one of the 30 caliber military rifles of the last century. I have German, Russian, American and British. In that scenario, I would pick one of my enfields, probably the jungle carbine because it is light. I would choose the enfield because of its large capacity magazine and the .303 started off as a black powder cartridge. The gunsmiths in Afganistan were able to reproduce this rifle under very primitive conditions. Besides the enfield is the smoothest fastest, action of the bolt actions. A technique of holding the bolt and pulling the trigger with your pinky will almost meet a semiauto in speed. A word of caution, most military surplus rounds are berdan primed. Unless you have special tools, they are almost impossible to reload. You need 100 rnds of modern ammo made by an American manufacturer. These will be boxer primed and can be reloaded to your hearts content.

My husband just sent me this in an email:

Senior Carjacking

This is a true account as recorded in the Police Log of Sarasota, Florida…

An elderly Florida lady did her shopping and, upon returning to her car, found four males in the act of leaving with her vehicle. She dropped her shopping bags and drew her handgun, proceeding to scream at the top of her voice, “I have a gun, and I know how to use it! Get out of the car!”

The four men didn’t wait for a second invitation. They got out and ran like mad. The lady, somewhat shaken, then proceeded to load her shopping bags into the back of the car and got into the driver’s seat. She was so shaken that she could not get her key into the ignition.

She tried and tried, and then it dawned on her why… For the same reason she did not understand why there was a football, a Frisbee and two 12 packs of beer in the front seat! A few minutes later, she found her own car parked four or five spaces farther down. She loaded her bags into the car and drove to the police station to report her mistake.

The sergeant to whom she told the story couldn’t stop laughing. He pointed to the other end of the counter, where four pale men were reporting a car jacking by a mad, elderly woman described as white, less than five feet tall, glasse s, curly white hair, and carrying a large handgun.

No charges were filed.

If you’re going to have a Senior Moment, make it a memorable one!

The good news, and the bad news, about how much ammo is…you will not need much at all. You are either really good…or you are not. You will get the drop on them or they will get the drop on you. If you are trained, practiced, really good, and you get the drop on them, (a lot of compound ifs) then you probably come from the school of one shot one kill; not a lot of ammo. If you are not so good, there are several of them, or they get the drop on you, then sad but true…you probably will not need much ammo either. As frustrating as it would be to run out of ammo you may as well admit that there is a practical limit to how many times you will get lucky before you get hosed. Having a large surplus will just slow you down and re-supply the bad guys.

The only way you will need a large quantity of ammo is if you are defending a well concealed and very well fortified position with a good field of fire. Think cover and concealment. Personally, sandbags would be a much better way to spend money than extra ammo. Even in a well fortified position you will succumb to siege. If you can not move and maneuver then sooner or latter you will get your ticked punched.

The exception is if you can get three or four highly trained people to work with you. If that is the case then while one or two people defend a fortified position, then two or three others can move on the attackers and back door them. This type of thing actually stacks the odds in your favor and might be repeatable. Cover and concealment, move and maneuver, communicate and conquer. Of course I know nothing about this. Just making it all up. Would not know how to triple tap a bad guy to save my life.

Move along, stay away from my rice krispies and no one gets hurt.

Great advice from April and Cloud9: I neglected to mention that trapping is much more effective than hunting. As my brother, who trapped muskrats for a living some time back pointed out, traps and snares work 24/7, whereas hunting takes time, exposure to the elements, separation from your home base, and probably some additional exposure to panflu virus.

Scout, I agree with you on all points with the exception of your dismissal of birdshot. You said that birdshot can knock a man down, but can be ineffective on a target wearing thick clothing. I have had a rather unique experience in being hit in the chest with a richochet from a 12-guage solid-slug. I was wearing a thick wool coat, an insulated jacket underneath, a cotton shirt, and long underwear. I was knocked back about 15 feet and landed on my ass. I was decidedly unable nor inclined to do harm to anyone for the next week. I don’t think any of us on this forum are out to kill anybody. Knocking an adversary silly, wounding him grieviously, should be enough. By that time you will have chambered another round and will be shouting profanities for him to get his ass out of your house/yard and never come back. He will probably be grateful to crawl off and nurse his wounds someplace else, which leaves you much less work digging a grave in your rose garden.

Cloud9, I like your advice about the shotgun, handgun, military surplus rifle combination, and bow to your far superior knowledge of reloading techniques. I have a 12-guage Remington, would like to buy a smaller guage for my wife, I like the .357 revolver (ammunition for which could double for a long gun) but finances oblige me to stick with my 9mm Ruger, and my 8mm Mauser will have to do for the time being.

However, I would beg to differ that on this blog most people (including myself) are not nearly as advanced as you in the reloading of ammunition. I get the feeling that most of the people reading here are just wanting advice on how much ammunition to buy at Wal-Mart or Big 7. You are right on in recommending that they buy common guages and calibers, even if they don’t own firearms to fire these rounds, but I think it is safe to say they are not inclined nor interested in reloading their own rounds. No disrespect intended, and I would love to spend a weekend with you learning about recasting bullets and reloading rounds (especially the primer part), but in the big picture I think most of the questions are about how much ammunition to buy.

And for God’s sake, stock up on your meds! It’s not so hard to do. Order your BP meds online from Canada, or order extra from Walgreens.com or buy for cash at Costco. Talk to your MD, tell him you’re going on an around-the-world trip and will need six months supply in advance. Use a little subterfuge. Your life depends on it, and we will need people like you if TSHTF.

Be well.

Response to NewGuy: In deference to your post, most of us have not been trained in SWAT tactics. Therefore, your minimalistic predictions of ammunition needs miss the three most important premises of this blog: self-defense, hunting, and barter.

Let’s face it, maurading gangs, though they may occur, will be among the least of our problems .Althogh I don’t disagree with your sandbag suggestion, the fortified fortress aspect could attract unwanted interest. And the idea of hiring mercenaries to help defend your fortress seems self-defeating. How are you going to ensure the health risk of these mercenaries, how are you going to ensure their loyalty, and how are you going to pay them to protect your property while neglecting thieir own?

I still feel that the best apporach is a low profile and overwhelming response challenge is the best approach. Some 16 rounds from a .22LR semi-automatic or two or three rounds from a shotgun (even with birdshot) would discourage even the most motivated aggressor. The message is go home, find a softer target, leave me alone. And don’t come back unless you want me to shoot your ass.

Maybe some day we can have a grop hug and relate our trauma from this life-changing event. Until then, I’ll be locked and loaded and trusting nobody. Good nigh. and good luck.

Regnes,good advice. I usually have about 6 mos of meds on hand. I will ask the boss lady ie. (wife) to order some more. The bottom line is that in a total melt down, 50 mg. capotril tablets will be hard to come by. I like your mauser. It is a a fine stronge rifle. There is nothing wrong with 8 mm. It served well. In fact the 98 K was the first military rifle I bought. When it comes to collecting WW II stuff, I am an aglophile. I have representative pieces of most of their small arms. I don’t have a vickers machine gun yet, but I do have most of the other stuff. Which brings up a point. When it comes to the states, you would be amazed at what is hiding in some people’s garages. If a melt down comes, I would imagine a world similar to that depicted in the Postman. With one exception, I think the peasants would be much better armed than those in the movie.

Any advice for attaching a light to a remington 870?

Bridge Lifter- I’m sure there are brackets available to fit the 870 that will hold a mag light and various other lights. I can’t say where off the top of my head… I’ll let you know When I find one. (it is on my list of “oh! I knew there was something else I needed!”)

Regnes…Relax it is called sarcasm. Mercenaries…at least the good ones are far too expensive. It would be cheaper to buy extra supplies and make friends.

Bridge Lifter check out www.centerfiresystems.com

A good thing when hunting varmets a bad think if the varmets can shoot back. They will shoot the light.

Regnes…and others…Yes, sarcasm indeed! The point I was trying to make is do not depend of firepower for defense. It works fine in the movies but in the real world it is not nearly as reliable and far too messy. Just imagine the biohazard if you blast a bad guy with a 12 gauge and he has high titers. Once you go down that path there is no coming back and it is no a happy place.

You sure as heck can’t leave him on the front steps, In the Florida sun on the third day, he is going to get ripe. A rain suit, rubber gloves, rubber boots, gas mask, duct tape, lots of bleach, and an outside shower. Jeez what a mess. After all that, you have to dig a hole. I say he, because most violent criminals are male.

I hope to God none of us ever have to kill anybody ever. Maybe he will run at the first warning shot.

Back to ammunition: For those of you that want to try your hand at simple reloading this is the little Lee loader. The thing is about the size of a Steven King novel and might weigh a pound. The only thing not included in the kit is a small hammer. It works very well for one caliber. There are no weights or measures. There is just a simple powder scoop. In the early days, I loaded a lot of 38 and 8 mm with these kits. They don’t work well with automatics. I would recommend these for revolvers,pumps, lever actions, and bolt actions. Take a look. http://wideners.com/itemview.cfm?dir=210%7C212%7C386

Anyone have a spare wood chipper?

Smother in lime and cover with astroturf. Mulch and tilth to the soil next Spring. Cabbages as big as they grow in Alaska.

Bridge Lifter: Duck tape has worked well for me when I needed to attach a Maglight to my .22 to get rid of some problem raccoons. Fits any rifle or shotgun, and any kind of flashlight. Besides, you should have plenty in stock for other uses.

Cloud9: Good point about the attached light being good for shooting varmints (which is what I used it for) but not so good if the varmints are shooting back.

One possible workaround if you’re planning for this type of scenario is to get one or more of those 10 million candle-watt lanterns and train them on your target area, preferably off to the side of your position. Anybody looking in your direction is going to be seeing dancing lights for the next several weeks.

Being in a country where it is difficult to get legal firearms, I remember the advice my brother once gave me to protect my home from intruders, when I was doing work in the house and unable to lock it. I didn’t use it, but if TSHTF I will.

Get Bells Big fish hooks Transparent fishing lines Nails Wooden planks Pliers Drill

Method 1 - night protection Tie big fish hooks to several lines, nail other end of lines on top of doors, different heights. Tie loud bells same way. Anybody tries to walk through the door, they get fishing hooks in face and clothing, they try to disentangle themselves and injure themselves. At same time, they get the bells sounding. They’ll flee. If not, you can always use whatever other weapon (sprays, etc.) you have on hand to neutralise them. And you can do same by hanging the lines from ceilings in food stock rooms.

Method 2 - day protection

Use pliers to redress the fish hooks to make them straight, drill holes in planks, drive fish hooks them through the drilled holes in the board planks, fairly close to one another. Line planks with hooks around the area to protect, hiding them with whatever carpets/vegetation you have on hand. Anybody walks there gets fish hooks in the foot, the biggest fish hooks will go through heavy shoe soles. And same goes for food stores…

My bro’ tells me he’s used the system in Africa to protect his home and after one guy got caught in his fishing lines he just punched him unconscious and dragged him out of the property. He never had problems again. And he’s capable of killing anyone with bare hands… so the guy was lucky to escape with his life. Pity my bro’ does not live in my area, I could trust him with my safety.

There is much that we can learn from our African cohorts. Some of them have lived on the edge longer than most of us. The choice between obeying the law and dying would seem obvious to most people. The right of self preservation is a natural right that trumps law that contravene that right. It was after all legal to kill Jews during the Nazi era. I agree with Dr. King on this one, “It is moral to disobey an immoral law nonviolently. The operant word is nonviolently. Having said that, those of us who live with an English Common Law tradition might want to be aware of the trap gun rule. Under Common Law, it is illegal to set a trap. The idea being that an inanimate device cannot discern between the innocent and the guilty. Some years back a Miami store owner wired a sky light with 220. It cooked a would be burglar. The store owner went to jail.

Any ammunition is to much if you will use it out of fear, Fear has to much of an affect on your aiming skills.

Scout,Cloud 9, Regnes,

Thanks for the info. I really appreciate it!

Speaking of taping a light with duct tape---yesterday while at the check out lane I examined one of those small hand held pens which have a reading light and a “laser” built in. for $6 I am tempted to tape the laser on one of my guns and line up the spot to match up with the sights/cross hairs. Of course keeping it stable after some recoil may be a problem. It might work with a .22 caliber. If I only had a clamp.

Is there any one who monitors short wave. I like to check out the veiw from other countries and found that the HAM operators (single side band) are a source of truth.

First off why not just buy the correct laser sight for a .22 they run 20 dollars. (they come with most Daisey guns anymore) Lasers suck! Your point of impact will always be changing, you cant see them during the day in bring light, they require lots of batteries, your most likely not going to be shooting at more than a few yards anyway. If you want a light go with the flashlight. I found a barrel clamp for my rifle that was made for a mag light and it has a pressure switch to turn on the light. Believe me your better off spending 10 mins with someone that can teach you how to shoot than depending on all the fancy gizmos.

Groan, make it stop.

Just when I think this thread has dropped away for good, some commando has to bump it back.

What exactly is “point of impact”, Am-nm-y? That ever present danger, the lurking…hungry neighbor?

Wonder how many mainstream newbies will see this thread today and run for their lives.

can I suggest heat guided missles, grenades, flame throwers ? might as well go all the way. What ever happened to “ Love thy neighbor “ ??

Why not claymore mines? Blow your neighbors apart from the safety and comfort of your living room.

Mountain Man: Reality is distasteful. Sheltered sensibilities may indeed have to run in horror from the discussions in this thread, but I guarantee you they will be less likely to survive. Every shred of information that you can “upload” regarding this possible catastrophe, you will be the better for it, even if you never plan to implement any of the suggestions.

For this viral tsunami you will need to stretch your thinking in every direction and have no topic or line of thinking as taboo. Just because it “smells” to you, does not mean it can not be useful to you at some point.

There is very little distance that separates us preppers from those not concerned. Using the tsunami analogy we preppers are the ones who started running from the beach when we saw the ocean recede.The ignorant and unconcerned are gaping at the spectacle of all that exposed ocean floor and flopping fish. We who are running are still very likely to get caught up in the onrushing surge of water and our chances of survival (sad to say) are only slightly more than the gapers on the beach.

We need every little edge, every little bit of information that we can get. This is REAL. This is not a test.

Bridge Lifter asks:

>Is there any one who monitors short wave. I like to check out the veiw from other countries and found that the HAM operators (single side band) are a source of truth.

I listen to shortwave. Not HAM operators, just the state broadcasts. And to judge from those, regarding Bird Flu, the British and Japanese are worried, the French having a cow, it has barely started percolating into the mindset of most Africian stations, and Asian nations are aware they’re in the midst of a disaster.

The main thing you get from shortwave these days, though, is in what low esteem the U.S. is held. T__T

FW

I think we’ve had enough of gun threads. There’s a first amdenment right to bear arms, but it certainly doesn’t need to be a focus of flu prep.

I’ll leave the comments standing. This thread is now closed.

golden tersely comments:

>can I suggest heat guided missles, grenades, flame throwers ? might as well go all the way. What ever happened to “ Love thy neighbor “ ??

Unfortunately my neighbors aren’t the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders… ^__^

(You’ve got stuff like that? O__O Where’d you get it? Can I have the name of your supplier?)

Anyway.

The point, here, is that we are looking at the possibility of a social breakdown on an unprecedented scale. We have seen countries collapse before - Liberia, Argentina, Russia - and the results have not been pretty. Or pleasant. If you can envision the chance that a pandemic might disrupt such baseline services as food and eletrical production and it will be up to the individual to deal with the consequences, why - oh why - do you insist that there is no need to similarily worry about social disorder in such circumstances and that we’ll all just hold hands and sing “kumbaya”? Where I live, even though it’s a semi-rural small town area and according to myth therefore crime free, we’ve got people so desperate for money for drugs they’ll steal anything, hurt anyone, and rob houses while people are in them to get even a few bucks. You can’t leave cars or houses unlocked anymore, and God help you if you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time. Imagine that sort of desperation spread throughout society, and you can see why some people get nervous.

Does this mean I’m going to blow away my neighbors pre-emptively during a pandemic? No, I’ll help where I can. But it also doesn’t mean I’m not going to meet violence with violence or ignore the need to prepare to be able respond that way, with overwhelming and devastatingly lethal force if it comes to that.

Deal with it.

And be sure to give me the name of your hand grenade supplier. ^__^