What scares me the most is the thought of my small township in NJ being turned into a war zone as hungry people hit the streets. I worry for my family…..I get sick at the thought of my neighbors, people I know and like, banging on my door for help or food….or watching their houses get looted. Or maybe having to defend my house from looters. I worry about 2 elements - the people who are sick and/or hungry, and the ones who seek to profit from the unrest, who will steal and assult for their own personal gain.
This is the face of the pandemic that most people can grasp - not that we’re all going to die from the flu - which is basically all they compute.
I live in NJ as well. I am in the process of getting firearms for protection of my family and our home. Anyone who tries to loot or threaten my family will be shot. I had never touched a gun in my life much less own one. But if situation comes to it, I will defend my family.
Damn McGreevy and all his anti-gun buddies. How hard is it to get a hand gun license in NJ. I live in NY and it wasnt that hard. Good luck with the gun aquisition. Practice, Practice and more Practice. Dont forget about the food.
Nonny, I too live in a small township in NJ.When birds staring in this country and the main stream media pick this and flood us with information maybe then people will start thier preps.Lets’ hope it not too late.Its’ a hard decsion to make and I am very conflicted about this issue.My family comes first,I will do anything to insure their survival.
What I wanted to say is when birds start dying,I’m a lousy typist.Mike thats’the decision I’ve arrived at fool with my family and you will be shot.
What I wanted to say is when birds start dying,I’m a lousy typist.Mike thats’the decision I’ve arrived at fool with my family and you will be shot.
My husband is in law enforcement, and he’s a hunter - guns and ammo are no problem in my house. However, he could be called to work and I would be home alone. I have a child, and a serious case of Mommy rage, so I don’t doubt that I could defend him…..but if you really think about it - consider that your next door neighbor could be sick or starving and leading the charge of a throng of people trying to get to your house and your food. A shotgun helps, but we’d be in the 5th deminsion of hell as a society. This is what keeps me up at night!
Well, if this pandemic happens, I am not worrying about neighbors, even those we are very close with. Survival of the family is only thing I would be concerned about. I am prepping. If someone doesn’t prep, too bad. If they try to loot, they will be shot with my yet-to-be-bought gun..:-)
I do hear in NJ, it is a nightmare to get guns.
Wow..the panic on this board is thick you can cut it with a knife !! You people have already assured yourself that a complete breakdown in society is about to occure. The hysteria you are showing is borderline schizophrenic. I truly feel sorry for you having to live is such fear..it must be very stressful on you and those around you.
I guess I need to get on some prozac or something. Thanks but I am very calm. I am just preparing for eventualities I can imagine. Fear is something that might come up if and when there are hoards roving looters with firearms. Till then it is calm.
Mike I’m calm too.Thank you for articulating what I feel.May I offer the suggestion of getting involved with the NRA?
Mike I’m calm too.Thank you for articulating what I feel.May I offer the suggestion of getting involved with the NRA?
realist: If you cannot think a situation thru you cannot deal with it. Most people here are preping both in their heads and their homes. We have never seen anything like a pandemic with high CFR; people are attempting to think outside of the box. Perhaps you should try it. Kelly
NRA? That is a major predicament since I am (at least was) for gun control and I vote Democrat most of the time. Yikes!
Really Mike you expressed that you never owned a gun before.They can advise you with traing and most of all safety
This is a NJ. thread?? I’m in a small town too. A lot of people have guns here and are into the Piney hunting culture. We have a 20 gauge shotgun, and the neighbors on both sides of us, have guns and use them. (They see something they don’t like in their yard -groundhog, they shoot it. Their dog gets old, they shoot it.) They have hunting dogs, for game birds. They have a lot of their own deer and fish, filling freezers. I’m a newcomer to this culture, but it appears to be very acceptable to have guns here, -all the gun clubs. You should be able to buy someone’s used gun, or find out where they get theirs. Ours came from a relative in PA.
Realist: Sure you are a “realist”? I, too, have these fears, but I keep them contained by planning, prepping, and coordinating with local authorities when I think I can do some little good.
I sleep like a baby at night and wake up refreshed.
I detect no schizophrenia on the part of the above posters, just a proper reflection on the accounts of recent history and ancient history.
Yes, yes. I will get training. I have already been to their website looking for training classes.
Yo NJ Preppie!Sure looks like it.My husband is ex military.He enjoys target shooting and skeet.He also reloads ammo as well.
Mike – at 11:59 — “NRA? That is a major predicament since I am (at least was) for gun control and I vote Democrat most of the time. Yikes!”
Mike---there are a lot of Democrats who got “smart” and joined NRA. ;) AND own guns. Look at ex-Pres. Clinton. He’s a hunter and owns several shotguns…I believe Joe Leiberman was at one time an outdoorsman with NRA credentials (Dem could correct me on that one), Sen. Dianne Feinstein used to carry a concealed 9mm handgun when she was mayor of SF…
Lots of folks who are liberal-minded still believe in the right to protect themselves…
Mike, NRA offers some of the best available training. A local gun club might be another place to look. (OK, so personally I think gun control is silly and immoral and unconstitutional, but whatever.) What I mostly think is that one of the skills an adult should have is an understanding of safe use of a gun. Doesn’t mean you have to have the gun, but you sure better have that training if you do. I think you’ll find a certain change in attitude once you are past that step.
Realist - You should learn that panic and fear are an emotional response to either being out of control of a situation or not knowing what is happening to you and your surroundings. I think that these folks are, in fact, exhibiting the opposite of panic. they have attempted to understand the situation that they may be facing, and have endeavored to gain control of it by prepping and arming.
Whether their preparations are appropriate, overdone or underdone is not for us to say now. That can only be determined later, after a long time has passed. Whether they are correct or incorrect in their assessment in the need to arm themselves is not for us to say now.
But I would offer that you, reading through all of these postings and then taking time to comment on how misguided we all are must be the most stressed of us all. You don’t agree with what is being pursued, and yet hang around and read and comment. Why is that? Is it, perhaps that you feel endangered and out of control, and that by posting comments about others you are trying to cleanse yourself of your own fears?
I don’t live in NJ, but My husband and I have two new Glocks 9mm, we have signed up for classes and will start target pratice this week. We have talked about this for a long time. My husband has said we should get guns before we can’t. Just incase the gun control people change things. You know people like MIKE :) Here in Texas we can carry. It is sad how our culture is and we have to even think about these things but Katrina just brought it home.
LoveTexas – at 12:24 --- You will LOVE the Glock. I have a Glock .40calS&W pistol, pre-ban, and a Ruger P89 9mm. I prefer the Glock because it’s much lighter and easier to handle.
Realist you obviously don’t know how things work. Instead of entering the doors of fluwikie to cast judgement on those here maybe you can choose to open a different set of eyes and look at this situation as a game. Let’s pretend we’re playing checkers. You’re on one side of the board and BF is on the other. Each side is forced to move at their turn…getting closer and closer to each other. Will you let the other opponent take you down or will you methodically plan your strategy so that you can be “kinged” as many times as possible and move where you want in the direction you want? You know you’ll lose a few men, but as long as you win that’s a sacrifice you’re willing to make. We here at Fluwikie have all decided to be “kinged” that way we have the option of calling our own shots as opposed to being forced into a directed move because we were unprepared. By planning now, we will not be caught off guard.
Realist, in a nutshell, I truly worry for your family and loved ones. To be so close to the truth and turn around… Well good luck to you and yours. We CAN sleep at night knowing ours are taken care of.
AD…bravo
I’m in my mid 50′s my grandmother is pudhing 100,she survived the 1918 pandemic.She resided in Philadelphia.About 5 years ago I asked her what it like to experience something like that.I’ll never forget her reaction.To say a look of horror passed over her face is a complete understatement.She covered her face with her hands and cried and told me she just couldn’t discuss it.I’m using the 1918 pandemic as my guideline for my family’s preparation.I’m fervently praying this won’t be the cause but just in case… I’m also of the duck and cover generation.Civil defense preparation was something that was hammered into us almost constantly.So Realist I hope you can understand my feelings about this.We honestly don’t know the severity of this pandemic,I belive its’ coming and any measure is none to extreme in my opinion
Being quaratined with my family in a house for six weeks. The last thing I want in there is a firearm. I’ve got better odds with the bird flu. Beside the neighbors on my street know to stay the hell away from me.
“Every street has someone crazy on it and if you don’t, chances are your the crazy one”
5 big black guys break through you front door in week 6, what you gonna do? Throw cans of dinty moore stew at them, get real. You want a fire arm in your house, dont be foolish.
They would have already been shot at the city limits.
humor at its best… he he
Joey - and why would those 5 big guys necessarily be black? This is a public forum, you need to be careful about sterotypes and prejudice.
The price of being overprepared is nothing to the price of being unprepared…bottom line. IMO
Because, Im black and I have 4 buddies who are gonna take yo shit
AD, very well put.
Realist, I just got off the phone with my sister and she had no idea that BF was running through wild birds. She thought it was just a few on farms. People scare me more than BF.
Most americans have no idea what it feels like to be really HUNGRY.
Joey - good luck with that….
Ignorance is bliss,like I stated earlier,the public won’t start to take notice of this until birds start dying,and the mainstream media inundatse us with information
Mike,
I commend you on taking the stps to protect your family. I agree that taking a firearms safety class should be your next step. There are some other things to think about when you have a gun in your house. You have to be aware of what is beyond your target. Example: If an intruder/looter is between you and a loved ones bedroom (occupied) then you have to be sure of your target. Drywall doesn’t stop bullets. Plywood doesn’t stop bullets. Bullets ricochet and easily change their path if they come into contact with anything in that path. Anyone on the other side of that wall is potentially going to get hit. A family plan needs to be established on what to do if there is an intruder in the house. Now having said that, there isn’t a perfect scenario to protect your family. If someone is in my house I will rely on my training and skill to stop the threat. If you must shoot then shoot to kill. If you can find an IPSC or IDPA group near you I would recommend joining. Do not be intimidated. Not only is it great practice it is great fun!
Having lost my electricity/water for weeks on end. (florida resident) I can’t tell you the experiences I have had with my neighbors. The one thing people need to remember is we will band together and support each other. I have seen it year after year after F*J(!! year. I know quarantine sounds like it will be different but it won’t. Get to know your neighbors!!
Any unprepared person can become a problem.
What percent of the public in your area understands that an influenza pandemic may be about to occur
and the international agencies cannot stop it, and, there are not enough antivirals, which may not help anyway, and, there is not a vaccine against it and won’t be enough for the public for years,
and knows that pandemic waves in the past had two or three waves which can last for months each, and have stored away months of food and medicine and cooking or heating fuel… drug addicts aren’t going to be able to get their fix, criminals are already out at large with guns.
Seen the current mortality rate, with functioning hospitals and healthy staff?
What percent of the public would have to be prepared to prevent “a complete breakdown in society” ?
What percentage of us have local officials who have told the public, and told the municipal employees, to stock up, rotate thier supplies, are holding inter-agency brainstorming meetings, incuding the public, on how they’d get through months of quarantine and pandemic?
We know how dangerously low our regions’ percentages are.
Too many doctors and municipal authorities still laugh and say “nothing to worry about” and do not take steps to prepare. Too many essential workers are unprepared, and no plan and no military can overcome an entire population needing help for most of a year, while the entire globe is in the same situation or worse.
In my state I can only defend a life, I may not legally defend property. So, I better not shoot the scum in the back as he’s running away. Maybe things will be too crazy for these details to matter, but make sure you know what you are allowed to do with that gun.
better to be a fool for preparing than a fool for not.
Well said.I spoke casually to an offical yesterday about BF.I was informed that there was no discussions,no real plan and this individual said they won’t do anything until BF arrives.So I suppose we really are on our own.
Calico— If you do happen to shoot the scum in the back, have someone hold him up in the same place and shoot em in the front. It may not fool CSI, but they may be undermanned during a pandemic. ;)
BroncoBill Yes it feels great in your hand that is why I bought it, besides the saftey and its record of performace—it is sweet.
anon 22, PS, I have had both publications and patents and it my experience that patents are much harder to “get through” than a publication in a peer reviewed mag.
People in NJ….
I am wondering if there will be a mass exodus of people coming from that tiny little town across the Hudson. Any thoughts?
“Public Unrest” title has wrong connotation, IMO survival is a better one.
Realist
BAD troll! No donut!!
It’s hard to imagine - I figured we’d be in for the long haul since I’m 30 miles from PHILA - and you KNOW 95 will be closed or clogged or a riot scene as people flee.
I can imagine that someone who hasn’t considered what hunger, disease and absence of law and order will do to a community might call us paranoid….but in every town, there is a seedy section - and they’ll wash over the rest of us like a septic tank backup at the first sign of a missing police presence. And those are the people crying, bloody and/or mourning a loved one on the 6o’clock news saying ‘WHYYYYYYYYYY’
If they come from that tiny town across the Hudson, they may not get to me since I am in Central Jersey. Again, hunger and stupididty in not preparing, might make people walk 60 miles to my home.
Nonny- where in NJ do you live? I’m in Winslow Township, camden County.
I live in the Pacific NW and we have been lucky to not have a disaster of large scale here—yet. Watching our governments response, or better, lack of response to the predicated hurricane disasters on the Gulf Coast has made me realize there will be no help. I don’t have a firearm, but I grew up with them and will apply to get one this week. I will help my neighbors as much as possible, and we will no doubt revert to a barter system in some areas. One thing as fat americans we have going for us is most of us could live off water for a few weeks, as well as the fact that most of us have better nutrition than say someone from India or China. Those countries will be devastated. The other thing I’ve notices is the more this thing seems to be ramping up, the less we hear about it. Comments?
I live in Tabernacle - we’re a bit more remote then Winslow - but that can also be a bad thing when people go bump in the night. We’ve stocked and prepared, and I work from home, so I’m not worried - my husband works for Evesham Twp police - he could be called away from home, so for me, hungry, sick and scared people roaming the streets is a huge concern.
Never shot a gun in my life. Don’t want to. Thought about buying one with no ammo just for intimidation reasons (not sure it would really work, but I can put on a crazy mother act). I’m not afraid of the gun, I’m afraid of a few personality flaws I have ;)
Also thought about making a biohazard sign and taping it to the front door with some warnings so people would think we had it at our house.
I am stashing items in hidden locations so if we were robbed, they would only see what was in our pantry (our normal supplies).
Somehow I have never been able to envision hungry hordes besieging my little rural town and countryside. I envision road blocks. My idea of guns is a musket or a Remington hanging over a door or fireplace. There are so many hunters around this area, that anyone thinking he could maraud is a damn fool, who won’t make it back to his car. I won’t have to lift a finger, I’m sure a lot of others will be ready, willing and able to keep the peace.They don’t fool around in this neck of the woods.
spam removed
I am pleased that we are thinking about these things. Self sufficiency and self defense are part of the same mindset. Ten years in law enforcement convinces me that many cops will do their jobs up until the point that it threatens their own families. At that point, most with families will lay down their badges and go home. The law enforcement mind set divides the world they don’t personally know into three groups, cops: bad guys and potential victims. On the first encounter, they make their mind up about to which category you belong in about 3 seconds. Most cops do not like the idea of an armed citizenry. To many policemen an armed citizen represents an occupational hazard. Consequently, you had the police reaction to disarm people in New Orleans
I suppose when it comes to firearms like any other aspect of preparation you must decide whether you are going to rely on others or rely on yourself.
After the outbreak becomes official, I don’t see a whole lot of community action or police support until the 3d wave has already passed. Up until that point, community efforts would most logically only help spread the disease.
Cloud9 - very good point and thank you for your LE service. If things get very, very bad, we may not be able to fully rely on law enforcement.
The issue that is the hardest to nail down (as none of us have crystal balls - brass maybe but not crystal - sorry I couldn’t resist) is will there be civil unrest - and if so, to what degree? I know stores were hit in NOLA by people needing things like diapers and water, as well as others who “needed” flat screens, Rolex watches, etc. The question for me and my family is if it happens, will civil unrest get to the point where people will start going house-to-house, and if they do will it be to steal food or flat screen TV’s?
Since no one can really say, I think it is helpful for people to discuss the issue of self-defense - it is a catharsis of sorts. By speaking about the unspeakable, you hope it never happens.
I’m in a mid-Atlantic (not NJ) suburban situation - but although I sort of think I’d be better prepared with a shotgun, someone in the house has a history of depression and it poses a risk from that direction too.
I think hiding some of your supplies might be the way to go - it would help if the intruders really are looking to steal (if they are your starving neighbors, for example) instead of gaining more twisted pleasures.
You know, I read these and it scares me to death. Spouse is ADAMENTLY against a gun in the house due to kids - even for this situation, so I read these posts and feel totally helpless. I am prepping diligently, but after reading this feel like, why bother? Someone is just going to come rob me of my stuff and then kill us by infecting us. Can anyone make me feel better today????????
If you buy a gun in Florida and you have children in the home, you must have that gun under lock and key. The simple safe method is to get a trigger lock. The gun cannot be fired with it in place. It is also cheap.
Would some form of martial arts course help?What about pepper spray?
anon at 9:57 - First we never say the “G” word here, unless its “God” - that one Dem will allow, LOL. I prefer the “boom stick” euphemism myself, but I digress.
We have no idea what is going to happen. If local governments provide food for those who didn’t prepare (which a lot of us don’t think is going to happen as most communities are not prepared) will people come looking to take yours? It could happen. We’ve chatted about tape recordings of dogs barking, people coughing, leaving fake bodies outside and painting signs on doors - these all are interesting ideas.
At the end of the day I have always believed that no matter how many Starbucks there are in my neighborhood, how many digital pictures my assistant can cram on her new memory stick, or how fast my DSL line is, we still live in a world where might makes right and there are very bad people out there who only respond to overwhelming force.
If there is one thing I have seen throughout my career is that even hopped up, extremely desperate criminals will avoid your place and hit another house (even a second or third time) if you have a dog. Maybe your husband would be okay with that?
anonymous have you ever known apsolutely known what the future had in store for you?. None of us do, or will.
Ghost - you are correct. With a history of depression in your home, you do not want that person to have access to any firearm. The idea of two stores of provisions is excellent, but trust me - if someone is able to get into your house, it could be a much worse experience than them simply taking your obvious supplies. I hope you can find a way to secure against anyone gaining entry to your domicile.
For anyone in Canada planning on defending their property, this is a link (I hope it works) to the laws in Canada that concern self-defence and defending property:
Scroll down to Article 34 for the beginning of the section on Defence of Person and to Article 40 for the beginning of the section on Defence of Dwelling.
Anonymous at 9:57: Not everyone will be targeted for robbery or mayhem even in a chaotic environment created by a high CFR panflu. Also you can feel better by assuming that the panflu CFR will not be that high (which may very well be the case). And you may have a neighbor with a gun who is also prepared for panflu, and the miscreants may target his place first (much to their dismay).
Also, you can double your supplies now, and plan to make a future deal with an unprepared, but armed neighbor to protect you as well as himself. You should know this neighbor well enough to somewhat trust him. I think he would be delighted to get the supplies in return for his protection of you.
Also, even now, non-gunowners get a “free ride” of protection due to the fact that criminals do not know who has guns and who does not.
Medical Maven has a very good point. With the hurricanes down south, many unarmed people painted signs that said, “You loot, we shoot” and were passed by. Maybe you want to stock up on some neon paint. : )
Compared to 1918, there is more “public”, and more reliance on supermarkets for food, more reliance on public water and on public utilities for heating. This density of population is not geared for switching over to natural survival skills. There’s really no solution to that fact. I can only hope that lose of modern means will be very temporary, after that, I guess we’ll be stone aging it. We can’t all take drastic measures to move to a 19th century farm.
jersey girl(and anyone else interested in not being a victim)- go here and find a class time in your area- http://www.nrahq.org/rtbav/schedule.asp these classes are NOT firearms training, they ARE inexepensive, and they apply to everyday life.
I used to live in that little town across the Hudson…Each community has a different tolerance to being without electricity and water. I give New York City about 3 days. After that they will drive their cars, ride their bikes or walk to someone they know outside the city.
Many folks in the city have planned for a place to go to because they have been through 911 and the blackout. (Everyone I know had some sort of plan, 9/11 was disturbing for those of us living or working in Lower Manhattan.)
And while you are worried about some stranger robbing your house, you are more likely to see an acquaintance, a second cousin or co-worker standing on your doorstep holding their 4 year old’s hand, begging for supplies. They probably will have a desination besides your house, and need some gas or food to continue on. Think about the folks you know in the City, and when you see them next, ask if they have thought about it.
You might have strangers begging too. Think about how you would handle that.
In my case, I might keep an extra can of gas or jar of peanut butter for the folks I know. Act like my last supply, wear a mask and send them on.
I don’t live in New Jersey, but I give my small city about 2 to 3 weeks without services before total mayhem ensues. If it comes to that we will have to move out to a relative’s farm. Hope it won’t happen!!!
Ghost You can still have that/those firearms under the condition you describe. Gun locks are quite secure and if only you have the key or the combination is kept unknown to that particular person, you can keep everyone safe.
A bit of advice for those unfamiliar to handguns and considering getting one. Most folks new to weapons will do better, at least initially, with a revolver rather than an auto-loader. There is a phenomena called “limp-wristing” that many novices (especially women) have when using an auto. The gun has to be held firmly enough for the action to cycle properly, if not the gun will jam - this is not an issue with revolvers. Revolvers are also a bit more forgiving as far as routine cleaning & maintenance goes. Personally I carry a 45 auto, (1911) but I have been using/shooting firearms for many years.
anonymous – at 09:57
No need to panic, there are several non-boomstick defensive options! First, they can’t rob you if they can’t get in, so making it hard to get in vulnerable points like doors and windows with plywood, boards, security bars and glass, and braces will go a long way towards discouraging would be looters. So will extremely LOUD alarms, as no burgler wants to attact too much attention to what he’s doing. With children about, boobytraps are probably out, at least lethal or injurious ones. But tripwires, adult eye level irritating sprays (or balloons filled with unpleasant smells and rigged with pins to pop if disturbed), and flashbulbs to scare them off might work. So might running a bluff that you ARE armed and WILL shoot (a piece of plywood with a few apparently bullet holes in it, for instance, with words painted on it warning bad guys off)…
Also, check with the spouse about HOW adamant she/he is about weapons. A pump shotgun can be disassembled into components so that no child can use it, but put back together and ready to use in a few minutes.
And there’s always the basics like a bow and arrows…
FW: while I understand the concerns I would not want to be putting that shotgun back together with badguys at the door! Bad plan! Kelly
You know, I read these and it scares me to death. Spouse is ADAMENTLY against a gun in the house due to kids - even for this situation, so I read these posts and feel totally helpless. I am prepping diligently, but after reading this feel like, why bother? Someone is just going to come rob me of my stuff and then kill us by infecting us. Can anyone make me feel better today????????
hi anonoymous,
explain to your spouse thyat you owe it to your kids to have a gun in the house.
i have three kids, age 4, 6 and 9. i am a regular shooter/competitor/hunter. my kids are IMMUNE to gun fascination. they really are. ever since they were small, i’ve let them ask me to handle my guns and i’ll get them anything out of the safe to handle (safely… topic for another post)so that they do not seem taboo. they’ve satisfied their curiosity, they’ve heard guns fire. they’ve seen the effect of bullets on fruit and cans. they have a healthy fear/respect of guns. truth be told, my nine year old is a great shot and doesn’t even care to shoot anymore. i’ve given them gun prophyalaxis IMO. any my kids would be the one running to tell an adult if your kid went in the bedroom and pulled out dads blaster for a game of unauthorized show and tell.
keep your kids sheltered from guns and they’ll be the ones getting shot when their friends take them to see daddy’s secret, or heaven fobid, they find your hidden blaster.
if your wife is a typical democratic sheeple, tell her to change guns to sex and she if she feels the same way ? do you think you can shelter your kids and keep sex out of the house forever ? how do we help our children cope with their sexuality ? we answer their questions and tell them about the birds and the bees. we don’t banish sex from our house and make it a some kind of taboo with all the attraction that implies.
I know I’d be running away if someone pointed a hunting bow and arrow at me! Especially with some of those modern arrow tips!
I come from a family of boaters. My father always carried a flare gun with him. He felt that anyone would run if it was pointed at them. I know I would.
By the way, I do not have either.
explain to your spouse that you owe it to your kids to have a gun in the house.
Owe it yo your kids? Please. You might want to check out this link, which is a tad more balanced.
The fact is folks that we live in an ever dangerous world. Those of us who live in “more civilized countries” can easily forget that fact when we do not have do personally deal with it from day to day, but much of the planet through all of history have had to deal with it daily. Pray that you never have to confront that issue, but just like the BF itself, when you see the potential for danger on the horizon you had better prepare for it mentally, physically, and by having the needed tools. If you are not prepared you will be at the mercy of fate. For me and mine, I will hedge that bet as best as possible.
anonymous at 9:57 -
I have been scared too, and this is what I have bought:
Rex the Dog, an electronic barking guard dog ($69.99): http://tinyurl.com/hxqrz
RoboDog, an electronic barking guard dog ($119.00): http://tinyurl.com/keswq
“Beware of Dog” signs to post outside
Pepper spray which you can buy at the above RoboDog site, but which I actually bought at a police supply store.
Streamlight flashlights: These are high intensity flashlights which can somewhat “blind” a person when pointed at them. These are used by many policmen. I bought mine at a police supply store. http://www.streamlight.com/products.htm
Maybe these items will help.
Listen you don’t want anybody messing with you throw a bunch of dead chicken in your front yard (NON INFECTED OF COURSE).
scarry,
I like a simple laser pointer.
GooD idea I’ll have to get one too.
A really crude sign saying “danger - flu here” would probably keep more people away than any other technique. That failing, the 12 guage will settle the matter. All of my kids have been exposed to firearms, have spent enough time at the range to be more than adequately trained in all the weapons in the gun cabinet. I am not a major hunter, but I do enjoy the time in the woods. That might be good training if TSHTF. Thanks Dad (and Grampa).
Twoolf—great minds…
There will surely be a common sign for infected houses…it should keep people away for awhile.
I think the main thing to keep in mind is that you must be comfortable with whatever defenses you choose. If you are not comfortable with a firearm, you are not likely to use it. If you do use it, you may be shaky and scared—not ideal.
You must also be sure that your defense cannot be turned against you. Personally, I wouldn’t use a baseball bat, because I could probably be overpowered quite easily. I would consider a stun gun or pepper spray…of course, there might be some danger in just pissing them off, rather than disabling them…
Then again, the “you loot, we shoot” sign might be a good idea—even if you don’t have a gun. You only need to convince potential baddies that you will take them down, so that they will stay away.
sorry guys I had to share this one! www.rkdm.com/chickenchucker
kristikaylene “be sure that your defense cannot be turned against you”
Some stun batons have a strap and pin. If someone takes it away from you - it will not work for him/her.
But my guess is most “intruders” will have big weapons or they would not even consider going into an ocuppied home.
any intuder would have to be pretty desperate, and very fit if they are gonna try and break into my place! haha
18 stories of stairs followed by trying to break into a metal door in a cement frame!
good luck!
All this only underscores the need to make sure your neighbors and communities are prepared. I know everyone isn’t going get it, and there could be plenty of people wandering around like they’re extras in a zombie movie, but the more we can help get ready the better.
Also, I’m of the opinion that police, national guard, and other assorted official types will be doing lots of…um, “helping”. Not to denigrate those who are working very hard to keep us safe from other dangers, but in the past few years the whole “security” business has gotten out of hand. There’s a million glorified mall security guards out there who seem pretty anxious to be heros, and a panflu would give them a great excuse to put all those great new badges into action. Though, as much as I may seem a little cynical about that situation, I prefer the nuts with badges to the nuts without badges.
My first line of defense is being remote. I have people get lost even when I give them directions, a map and the GPS numbers. I also have a small cabin that you cannot even see from the satillite photos and is not on any of the county planning maps. I think the only people that could find it would have to be friends that have already been here. I think that the total population within a 3 mile radius is about 100 and within a 20 mile radius is about 3000 or so. I am just hoping that no one will to make the trip.
Twoolf-in-florida one of the problems I could see with putting the “Danger -Flu here” sign up is that people who have already been exposed may see your house as an even better target since they don’t have to worry about infecting anyone, you already have it in house, supposedly. Now will someone who is looking to break and enter have that moral dilemma, who knows.
Guys, guys, do you really want to shoot some starving 12 year old? What you want to do is have the crowds pass your place by and think that some other destination is a better opportunity. I am ordering skunk scent ($7.99) from Cabela’s. We will sprinkle that at the front and post a “Beware of Dog “ sign. If things look really bad, we’ll drag a log or other stuff to make a barrier up the front walk. We’ll close curtains and not cook on the BBQ. Instead of shooting, I am thinking that I will throw raw eggs (which, who knows, could contain avian flu!). A quarantine flag from a boat shop or a homemade sign that reads “flu here, STAY AWAY” are also good ideas. Or how about getting a sign painted now that reads “Welcome to the Johnson’s Chicken Farm! We have eggs and fryers!” — hang that out and it won’t be a welcome mat.
I recall a gun-happy couple who shot a kid on Halloween night a few years ago. Fear gripped them so badly that they didn’t even register exactly who was on the doorstep. What if it’s the neighborhood Brownie who suddenly remembered that she owed you a box of cookies? I’m not anti-gun but I do know that fear can make one horribly trigger happy.
Olymom,
I just saw your post on another topic and copied it to file and printed it and now here it is again. I love this “skunk scent”. That is excellent. I am going to get some. Oh and by the way when I copy to file it is so I can share it in the notebooks I am making for family and friends to help them get prepared. So thanks!! :-)
dem
you owe it to your kids to teach them about guns. even if your a hopolophobe.
you can banish guns from your home, but not the world. everybody should know the four basic rules of gun safety.
better than skunk scent… try and get a dead rat. sounds gross, and they really stink…but everyone knows instinctively what the smell of death is. They may not be able to identify it…but they will know it is “dead”.
they may think its you inside dead. morbid, but true
Here is a thought. I am thinking of the young lads who still have all their teeth and hair. Ladies and I suppose to be fair gentlemen, if you are really paranoid and have an aversion to guns, take a police man or a police woman as a lover. I guarantee by the time you get them undressed, you will have at least a couple of guns in the house, maybe more. Cops are more paranoid than you are. :-}
Leonidas – at 16:58
Teaching gun safety is a great idea. But I refer you again to the link I posted; they’re not for everyone.
Yes I prefer the cop lover alternative infinitely more entertaining until my wife finds out
These gun/ammo threads always become very popular - and I give credit to DemFromCT that he/she has not shut this thread down so quickly - as the other threads on this topic have been.
I am feeling more and more comfortable with my food/water/medice, etc… preps (thanks to this site)… but it does scare me to death the thought of some other “bad guys” coming to my house and taking all that I have prepped. Not only would my family run the risk of being exposed to the flu virus they bring into my house - but I really think that it would almost be a death sentence to have to take my family “on the road” right in the midst of a flu “wave” with no food/water. So as much as I wouldn’t want to hurt somebody over a can of tuna… that food and water really does represent our life line, and if others take it - in essense aren’t they trying to kill my family? I would consider any measure of protection taken a true matter of self defense.
City Slicker – at 20:14
Quickly is always a relative term… the Martial Law thread is still open (19 days), the original gun thread lasted 12 days. Other threads lasted a few hours, but they’re all still up.
Slicker,
What are you doing to get your community ready so that your safety and preps aren’t the issue?
Am thinking about a gun, but in the meantime I have: pepper mace (renders one person or a group totally disabled - can be shot at them from inside of the house - through a crack in the door or window); Wasp Spray (again, can be shot from afar and will render them temporarily blind); bb rifle (looks like a regular rifle and the metal shot can really hurt - especially if shot in someone’s face); 230 pound Mastiff (looks really scary but would probably only slime them to death).
My husband and I plan on installing locks on all of the inside doors. Most would try to break in through a lower window or door. Suggestion to board these up and lock doors leading upstairs. Secure locks on the doors where we have our stockpiles. Put medications Tamiflu, etc) in a safe, separate area.
Keep all preparations very quiet (watch what our kids tell their friends) and spread out preparations throughout the house in the event someone discovers one area. If things get ugly and there are reported lootings, relocate items under beds, high in closets, under couches, in toy boxes….wherever. Most looters would want to be in and out and would not likely spend alot of time searching every room…too easy for them to go on to the next house.
Anyone else have any other suggestions besides guns. I agree that a gun may be necessary, but trying to think of other things too.
Janet – at 20:42
“Anyone else have any other suggestions besides guns. I agree that a gun may be necessary, but trying to think of other things too.”
You might consider setting up an electric fense like those used to keep cattle in pastures. (I am not talking about a fence that would seriously hurt or kill a person). A double or triple strand should work. Just go to your nearest agriculture service center (feed store) and you should be able to buy one that has a solar charger. Run it around your house with the charger on the sunny side of the house. It should not be considered foolproof because someone that is familiar with them will know how to get through them. But at night it should give a prowler quite a shock;-)
Melanie - at 20:32
“What are you doing to get your community ready so that your safety and preps aren’t the issue?”
Excellent question. I am doing all of the normal things that I assume you and everyone else on this board are doing. After working all day, spending a little time with my wife and 4 kids, making runs to Sam Club and local hardware and sporting good stores in the evening, etc.. in my spare time I am telling everyone that I know about the need to prepare for the “bird flu”. There are about 1 million people who live in my metropolitian area, and contrary to many predictions on this website, I believe that the vast majority of people here will heed the strong warnings being provided by our national and local leaders to start stockpiling 2 weeks worth of tuna and dry milk under their beds. So, I figure I don’t have to worry about 750,000 of the folks around here - but I am having a hard time figuring out which of of the other 250,000 people won’t be prepared (not to mention those people from other cities and towns outside of mine that might drive to my area).
I have been trying to tell people about the lessons learned about human nature from previous situatins like this (seige of Jericho, Sarajevo, Venezuela, etc…) - all dicussed on other threads on this site. I have been sending e-mail’s to all of my friends and relatives urging them to take this seriously and start preparing, I have gone door to door and told all of my neighbors (the ones I know well as well as those I have never met), I have gone to the local school board meeting and to the local township meeting, wrote letters to the editor at my local paper, stood up and made announcements at church and at work. I figure that should help me reach at least 2 or 3 thousand of those 250,000 “strangers” out there. I am also considering buying space on a billboard on a major highway around here with a picture of a bird and some canned goods with the saying “get prepared now!”. Oh, and I wrote a letter to my Congressman. Just all of the normal things I assume everyone else is doing too, and by all of us working together, we probably won’t have anything to worrie about. Do you have any other suggestions?
Just in case people like you and I don’t end up having enough time to educate everybody in cities like mine on the seriousness of the pending pandemic, or in case local officials decide to empty all of the jails due to lack of guards, food preparers, etc… I went out and purchased a handgun yesterday (Glock 19 with two 15 round magazines) and I am going to buy a Remington 870 20guage shotgun today that holds 5 rounds. I hope these things, together with my blackout curtains, pre-cut boards to be installed on the windows, peperspray, etc.. will keep any bad people away from my family.
I know I got gun locks from the former cheif of police in my town. They might be available in your town. I got mine years ago, though I have no children in my home, just a precaution.Wasp and hornet spray have also been advised.
Threads like these always remind me of a scene from “Lucifer’s Hammer” (Niven, Pournelle), a SF book about scientists discovering a new comet heading sunward. At first they think it’s going to pass somewhere near the Earth, but not too near. As time goes on, though, they revise their estimate and think it’s going to be a close encounter. Then, they revise again, very close. And then, very VERY close. But keeping in mind the (literally) astronomical odds of two pinpricks in comparison to the size of the universe like the Earth and a comet intersecting, the scientists are adamant that there is no danger and the comet is NOT going to hit the Earth.
Until it does.
And kills most of the human race while knocking civiization out the window.
The part I’m referring to is soon after Hammerfall (as the comet impact comes to be called). Randall Harvey is a film-maker making documentaries on the comet and the public reaction as it draws closer. Although he believes the scientists saying there’s no danger, and interviews and works with several of them, at the last minute the rising public concern that the comet ISN’T going to miss gets to him and he does a variety of preps… just in case. He’s only a few miles away from home filming when the comet hits, but in the natural and man-made chaos that follows, it takes him hours to get back. And when he returns home…
It’s to find his wife and dog killed, and his house looted by a gang of thugs whose survival plan, in the event of disaster, was apparently to steal everything they could from others and run off with it.
That sort of image makes an impact on a person’s planning. :(
Janet
Another idea for “hiding” supplies is in your attic, especially if it is not one of those easily accessed by one of those pull down ladders. For example to get into mine you have to manuver an extension ladder through the open rafters in our garage to get to the attic door. Very few people looting a home, or even camping out there for a few days will take the time and effort to search an attic. One problem exists with this, summer heat, as high temps degrade most things quickly.
My problem with hiding supplies is not hiding them from intruders or guests, but from my son (single parent- his Lesbian, Alcholic mother long gone). At 16, and with a history of mild ADHD, he tends to over react to things like prepping. I’m thinking maybe climate controlled storage so I can make a Bonsai run, get my goods and hunker down. I have a fair amount stored in the pantry classified as Hurricane supplies, but there is a big difference between a months supplies and a year’s. I have a 500 gal water tank, generator with 10 / 20 / 50 days of fuel depending on use ( 10 days without electric following hurricane Frances was enough for me !) I’m doing as much as I can, but the space under the bed is only so big. I’m considering telling him what I’m doing but he tends to run at the mouth and then the whole family will probably think I’m a nut. No good deed goes unpunished. Comments welcomed.
try not to freak out..take one day at a time. As we all should. I remember Y2K very well, and I had stored water etc..not even needing it, I was the laughing stock of my family. Only I will admit this is much more serious and I feel it down to my bones. But please try to stay calm. Getting all worked up never did anyone good. please stay calm..I wish all of you the best
Preparedness is the key.
None of us knows if we will ever need the food or medical supplies we have stockpiled. The point is to be prepared for all situations. We know that if a pandemic starts, there will be a massive rush to scoop up all the food and medical supplies left. Prices will soar and supplies will evaporate. The time to get the food an supplies is now. It is an insurance policy. I hope that I never have to use the food that I have stocked, but there is comfort to know it is there.
That being said, self protection is the same thing. It will be too late once you need it to get a gun for personnal protection. One of the first actions in a national emergency will be secure food supplies, water works, hospitals, and guns (from gun shops). The emergenccy plans have been made by the military who understand the importance of food, water, weapons, and medical care. By the time you realize you need a gun, it will be way to late to get one. In a pandemic you will hopefully never need a gun, but if you do then it could be the difference in determining if you survive.
When I started prepping, I thought of food, water, medical supplies, heat (for winter), and protection. Each of these vital for ensured survival. Food - MRE and freeze dried since they are the least prep and long shelf life. Water - generator and well. Medical - masks, gloves, and meds (You gotta take your meds, man). Heat - three sources; oil, propane, wood stove. Protection - The new Springfield Armory XD Tactical 45 ACP 13 round clip with federal hydroshock 165 grain hollow points, an AR-15 rifle will be added at TSHTF-1.
All aspects of my preps involved research and deliberate decisions. I took an NRA pistol safety course in December 2005. With the course I could start renting pistols at the local range. I shot different calibers and different models to see what worked best for me. There is no best model or caliber of gun, but there is one that is best for you. You should choose the largest caliber that you can shoot accurately. 45 ACP is Americas favorite, but if you can not hit the paper target at 25 feet, its not for you. Shoot different models and see what fits your hand the best and which weapon you are comfortable with. I decided on the XD 45 because I shot it well and it had the safety features I want.
You can not wait till the last minute to realize you need a gun. Pistol permits in Connecticut require fingerprints and a background check that takes two months. This will not be an option in a pandemic. (Ironically, we can not fingerprint welfare recipients because it may hurt their self asteem. The gun purchase paperwork takes longer to fill out than a welfare application. I also need a picture ID to exercise my RIGHT to keep and bear arms, but requiring identification for the right to vote would dienfranchise illegal aliens, dual state college voters, and the dead from voting.) By the way, I’ve found that I really enjoy shooting and I’m even reasonably good at it. No tournament shooter, but it is a fun sport I enjoy.
The principle you need to understand is that your preparations are like building a chain to bridge you across the troubling time. Your chain will only be as strong as the weakest link. You can hope for the best, but must be prepared for the worst.
This is just my perspective.
I hope we all will look back and say we were silly to have worried and end up well prepared for the next blizzard or whatever.
Preparedness is the key.
None of us knows if we will ever need the food or medical supplies we have stockpiled. The point is to be prepared for all situations. We know that if a pandemic starts, there will be a massive rush to scoop up all the food and medical supplies left. Prices will soar and supplies will evaporate. The time to get the food an supplies is now. It is an insurance policy. I hope that I never have to use the food that I have stocked, but there is comfort to know it is there.
That being said, self protection is the same thing. It will be too late once you need it to get a gun for personnal protection. One of the first actions in a national emergency will be secure food supplies, water works, hospitals, and guns (from gun shops). The emergenccy plans have been made by the military who understand the importance of food, water, weapons, and medical care. By the time you realize you need a gun, it will be way to late to get one. In a pandemic you will hopefully never need a gun, but if you do then it could be the difference in determining if you survive.
When I started prepping, I thought of food, water, medical supplies, heat (for winter), and protection. Each of these vital for ensured survival. Food - MRE and freeze dried since they are the least prep and long shelf life. Water - generator and well. Medical - masks, gloves, and meds (You gotta take your meds, man). Heat - three sources; oil, propane, wood stove. Protection - The new Springfield Armory XD Tactical 45 ACP 13 round clip with federal hydroshock 165 grain hollow points, an AR-15 rifle will be added at TSHTF-1.
All aspects of my preps involved research and deliberate decisions. I took an NRA pistol safety course in December 2005. With the course I could start renting pistols at the local range. I shot different calibers and different models to see what worked best for me. There is no best model or caliber of gun, but there is one that is best for you. You should choose the largest caliber that you can shoot accurately. 45 ACP is Americas favorite, but if you can not hit the paper target at 25 feet, its not for you. Shoot different models and see what fits your hand the best and which weapon you are comfortable with. I decided on the XD 45 because I shot it well and it had the safety features I want.
You can not wait till the last minute to realize you need a gun. Pistol permits in Connecticut require fingerprints and a background check that takes two months. This will not be an option in a pandemic. (Ironically, we can not fingerprint welfare recipients because it may hurt their self asteem. The gun purchase paperwork takes longer to fill out than a welfare application. I also need a picture ID to exercise my RIGHT to keep and bear arms, but requiring identification for the right to vote would dienfranchise illegal aliens, dual state college voters, and the dead from voting.) By the way, I’ve found that I really enjoy shooting and I’m even reasonably good at it. No tournament shooter, but it is a fun sport I enjoy.
The principle you need to understand is that your preparations are like building a chain to bridge you across the troubling time. Your chain will only be as strong as the weakest link. You can hope for the best, but must be prepared for the worst.
This is just my perspective.
I hope we all will look back and say we were silly to have worried and end up well prepared for the next blizzard or whatever.
I hate double posts.
City Slicker,
All of us face the same pressures, we’re all volunteers here. I wrote a boatload of letters to the editor of my local paper and that woke up the city council.
My concerns reguarding public unrest are based on the following. Desperation cuased by sudden onset of fear,hunger,poverty and misplaced faith. Gracelessly targeted on any target of oppurtunity. It seems to me actual thinking has been replaced by simply repeating what your instructed to believe. This is a product of mass media influence. Mass media is a influenced management tool. Life,cultures and economies are more fragile than we allow ourselves to believe. To have never questioned the fragility of the things you thought would allways excist. To not prepare as if they allways would. Risks makeing monsters of any of us.
Twoolf,is it possible that you can get a sitter to take your boy to a movie while you shop or pack up your preps?I’m planning to store our preps in opaque rubber maid containers.I personally don’t feel a child should be told.Too much risk of letting some thing slip.My granddaughter saw our stuff and we explained it as stuff for a camping trip in the summer,we hated to lie but we felt,loose lips sink ships,and sparing her any anxiety would be best and her mom agrees.
BROTHERS & SISTERS! In response to the arms chat above, frankly I’m more alarmed about these messages than most. I will be purchasing weapons/classes with the idea I will never have to use them for their intended use rather a deterient(SP). I have to admit my first response was similar to theirs perhaps somewhat tamer which was a year ago. I have had sometime to come to terms with this matter…..please, please think things through and a little less hasty for gun resolve…which is understandable..it is our immediate reaction to protect our own.
If the worse happens…it will be a very dark time….. our choices will determine our personal history. Do all that you can NOW to avoid that situation…be prepared, have a lookout stand of some sort, board up your property, rolls of fence wiring for a secondary fence…SIGNS, SIGNS, SIGNS OF YOUR INTENTIONS, etc. if you have stated you are going to take some ones life than I encourage you to take preventive measures. I saw not to long ago via TV, a story from the east whereas a village was BF infected…while the moonsuit team was going in and dealing with the chickens demise….the village people were taking out the infected chickens from the pits dug for this purpose because there families were hungry. Why do I state this? I would have difficulty taking someones life because they are trying to feed their family, no hostile intent. Therefore, if those dark days come before us, I’m storing sacks of rice as well for that reason. SO FRIENDS, IF YOU TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF TAKING SOMEONES LIFE, PLEASE TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF PREVENTING IT AS WELL!!!
Daffy Duck: Thanks SO MUCH for the chicken chucker link a few days ago. Am I the only one who completely cracked up over that?
I’m prepping in South Dakota where I’m just about the only person in town who doesn’t own a gun. Not only do I not have $$$ to purchase one, I barely have enough money to prep at all. What happens when the 63,000 people in my city who do own a gun and have not prepped head for my place? Any suggestions? I’m off for the day from work, snowed in, and have way too much time to sit here and panic about this stuff.
Make yourself useful to some who are prepared. Earn their trust. If you are still standing after the first wave, your services will be in great demand.
Dalloway
Relax; don’t think that having a gun will make you immune to being shot. Statistics (even in war zones) shows just the opposite. More likely than not, anyone so vile to steal the food and life of another will shot the homeowner first or throw a grenade in the window. I doubt that a gun will help; THEY will always have bigger guns and more of them. So I would say don’t worry about that which is beyond your control and ability to do anything about.
I am snow bound today as well. I am spending my time establishing “family communication links”. We now have a password access family web site so we can keep people up to date. That is something I can do.
“I would have difficulty taking someones life because they are trying to feed their family, no hostile intent.” To say nothing of being illegal. At least in my state.
Thanks DennisC, Cloud 9. I haven’t had much luck trying to impress upon my family in the East that H5N1 is something to really be concerned about. I’m going to call my sis in Georgia and try a little harder. I’m thinking my best bet to protect my home and family is the “beware, flu here” sign and a supply of pepper spray. I live outside of town in kind of a secluded canyon. I’m also thinking the next time I’m out walking the dog, I’m going to stop and chat with my neighbor down the road, who I’m pretty sure hunts, and see if he’s doing any prepping.
Calico
I whole heartily agree with you. I could not kill someone - unless they were a clear lethal threat to one of my love ones. But it is legal in my state to shoot an intruder. I just could never do it. But I think it is very remote that I will ever be but in that spot. My guess is most of the villains will end up killing themselves or being killed by others. They will wake up days into the pandemic with no food, no water and with symptoms of a lethal disease. They will die of the flu walking the 5 miles to my house.
I refuse to get in a shoot out with an unknown number of people, with more weapons than I could ever assemble. Oh you might could do it for a month or two, but sooner or later you will run out of bullets. As they said in the movie “Wargames” – “Strange Game. The only way to win, is not to play”.
dalloway also, you can get wasp spray that will do about as well as pepper spray for much less the cost.
Calico Everyone should have similar reservations under the limited circumstances you indicate. I think (and hope) all here refer to shooting those who show hostile intent, not a child begging for food. As to being illegal, in the U.S. all but a few states now offer legal protection for those involved in a self-defense issue. Keep in mind that what most here are concerned about is a breakdown of law-and-order that is likely to accompany a pandemic of great enough magnitude. An oft-quoted slogan of law enforcement is “To Protect & Serve”, at best only the last half of that is true and accurate. About the only protecting Law enforcement (read police) does is luck & chance that they happen to be driving by when a crime is occuring, what they actuall do is try to catch the criminals after they have committed a crime. I for one will find little solace in hoping that those who attacked my family may someday be caught and prosecuted for their crimes. I will protect them as needed and then deal with any laws I may have broken afterwords.
FW – at 11:38
Great book, read it a long time ago. It made impact on me. New Orleans this past summer made me think of the aftermath in the book.
Hey everybody, you are making this way too complicated. A gun is just a tool, one of many tools that hopefully you will have acquired and know how to use before we experience our next pandemic. You may want to shoot a rabid dog to protect your kids, or you may want to shoot a rabbit for a stew. There will be no “animal control”, and food could be short at some point, even for us preppers.
Unfortunately, we can not buy what we need most-a prepared community, the wits to plan for every contingency, and the ability to think fast on our feet.
These “mind games” that we indulge in here daily will prove to be more useful than any tool that we could acquire. Preach, Prepare, Practice, and Visualize-Then you have a chance.
I have prepared and sent out packets of information anonymously to my neighbors. I am trying to help them see the light and prepare but I am also trying to get a buffer of sorts in the area where we can band together to try to help one another. I also sent one of the packets to myself so that I would not be singled out - this is a small area and the postal carrier knows everything lol. This also gives me a great excuse to call a neighbor and ask about their opinion, gauge whether they are prepping, etc. without “showing my hand” that we have prepped.
Rainla: My first good laugh of the day. Pretty sneaky! : )
Let us know how the strategy works. Do a tally, if it is not too much trouble. But don’t do so much that you tip your hand.
Concerning running afoul of personal defense ordinances: ‘Tis better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
Additionally, consider adding a tactical (blinding) flashlight such as a Surefire to your supplies. You absolutely, positively, unquestionably need to identify a potential target. A tactical flashlight may provide the oportunity to end a confrontation without physical harm to anyone. http://tinyurl.com/ltrrs
I can’t imagine my neighbors harming me, threatening me in any way. I have given a minimal introduction to a neighbor with children and asked that she share it with the other mothers. Anything would be best going from one mom to the next. I gave her the pandemic government org page. These are bright women, and bright kids. I expect they will possibly prep. I haven’t asked, though this morning on my way to the doctors office I was tempted to ask. I am careful not to push any of this too hard. It has to come out of their own concerns for their childrens future.
Unfortunately, we are not all blesed by “Nice” neighbors. My most immdiate neighbors live day to day, and the staples seem to revolve around beer and cigarettes. I fully expect, if TSHTF that my first problem WILL be my neighbors. I can’t cover up the smell of breakfast cooking (canned sausage, fresh biscuts with honey or jelly, and dried eggs with mushrooms and onions). I have devoted a major chunk of my personal gross national product to protecting myself and my kids, and will NOT share with the human flotsam next door, other than a couple of 00 buck cartridges delivered one at a time. WOW, had the news on while writing this and the TAMPA NBC station just ran a piece on BF, the crux of which was PREP, cause its going to be here by this fall!
anonymous – at 17:11 I agree with you 100% and like the way you phrased it. You cracked me up!
Sue, Mom always said I was a funny guy! Why be stuffy if you can be entertaining! Its fun for me at the very least!
Lily - I am not worried about my neighbors either, its the criminal element that walks unnoticed in our society that I am concerned about. Just last week they caught a pervert who had had two young girls enslaved in a hidden bunker in his back yard. Every day you hear and read about abductions, rapes, shootings and murders, and those are only the ones they know about. Just as there are good & decent people all around us so there are also animals amongst us parading as humans that will see this first as an opportunity to do all the foul things they dream about every day and when they see law enforcement break down they will crawl out of their holes and go absolutely crazy, many with no regard at all to the consequences - many like that could not care less about the Bird Flu as long as they have their season of fun while it lasts.
I remember a line from an old Dirty Harry movie, “When I see a naked man chasing someone with a butcher knife in one hand and H#@* O# in the other, I kind of figure he’s not out collecting for the red cross”. The police will not protect you from the maniac coming after your little girl in the middle of a major pandemic. Heck, by the time the police respond, if they respond, he’ll probably be finished with yours and busy gathering up some more.
I said it earlier and I’ll say it again; I for one will find little solace in hoping that those who attacked my family may someday be caught and prosecuted for their crimes. I will protect them as needed and then deal with any laws I may have broken, or guilt I may feel afterwards.
anonymous at 17:11, I’m in the same boat as far as neighbors go. Interesting to read a post from someone else who has the same problem. But i think it may be bigger than immediate neighbors. The service economy mentality has left many with a morality of useing thier fellow human beings as a resource to utilize. This posture, along with just in time inventory, and situational ethics is what causes me the greatest worry. In a macro sense.
I guess I don’t understand living in a place where I would fear my neighbors. I know that such places exist, buy why do people live like that? There are a lot of nice places you can live if you don’t care about money. But then I don’t even understand why someone would live in a city even if the majority of the people live that way.
Dennis, I lost everyting in a divorce and with a VERY high court ordered alimony, I am lucky to have a roof for my son and I. (Sorry your honor, I did not know she was a lesbian alcholic; sure, I’ll pay out the ass to keep her happy……)
We play the cards we get………….
Dennis, I lost everyting in a divorce and with a VERY high court ordered alimony, I am lucky to have a roof for my son and I. (Sorry your honor, I did not know she was a lesbian alcholic; sure, I’ll pay out the ass to keep her happy……)
We play the cards we get………….
EOD. Its just my temperment showing. I have my own protection just in case. I am talking about people I”ve observed in action over many years time. I always expect the best of people, and they usually behave as I expect. When I was in sixth grade I was harassed by a 16 year old bully. Once he attacked me, just a rock in a snowball, but my face was bloodied. The boys in my class beat him up. The principal called us in. I was never bothered again. What I decided then and there was that no one would bully me or make me afraid in any way. Its been a long time, I’ve never allowed anyone to harass me since, and I have never,ever been fearful. I’ve made some pretty tough characters shiver. One a psychopath who threatened to throw his lawyers over a parapet in the county seat. They were afraid of him, I wasn’t. He learnt to keep his distance.
DennisC - Sometimes people do not have much choice about where they live. We live in an area where the cost of housing is just about the highest in the US. The wages in our area have not even come close to keeping up with the rapidly rising cost of housing. Because of these two facts many people are forced to live in less desireable neighborhoods more often than they would like. Even living in a nice neighborhood is no guarantee. Most of the police calls in our neighborhood go to one of the nicest houses on the street and it rarely involves their kids.
You cannot judge a book by it’s cover nor can you judge a family by what the home in which they live looks like on the outside or the neighborhood where it is located. Some of the most moral law abiding people I have ever met live in homes that are nothing to brag about. Some of the people who apply for food baskets at Christmas in our town live in some of the best neighborhoods in town in homes I could not ever imagine being able to own. It is very odd for a family such as mine who struggles to make ends meet and has never asked for such charity myself to watch these people arrive in a Mercedes to pick up a charity basket for their own family.
Every family has their issues, priorities and struggles. For our family it is about paying for a home that allows us a decent, running car even if it is not the latest thing, and the ability to put food on the table and pay our utilities ourselves. I may not live in the best neighborhood or in a fancy home but the roof doesn’t leak and it provides us with the shelter we need. I watch ALL my neighbors closely, the ones in the fancy homes down the street just as much as those around the corner in the bad neighborhood.
Would I live in a better neighbor hood or nicer home if I could? You bet. I’m not a complete idiot. A castle on the top of a hill with it’s own power and water supply will do nicely.
DennisC – at 17:45 --- There are a lot of nice places you can live if you don’t care about money.
Dennis, not all of us care about money, but unfortunately, that’s the stuff that makes the world turn. I also live in the most expensive state in the US (CA), but so far, one of the middle-expensive (Central Valley). However, it costs a lot to live here, in fact 2/3 of my net income goes to my mortgage. I work in the IT field. So, I live where there is IT work. I would LOVE to live in Montana, or Idaho, or Kansas…but there aren’t a lot of hi-tech companies there. As it is, we’re selling our house and moving to VA in the next 45 days, and I’ll be commuting roughly 45–60 miles to work each day, just so I CAN live in an area that I can really afford and feel comfortable at the same time.
You’re right—it doesn’t make sense to live in an area that isn’t safe, but, for some, that’s all there is…
BroncoBill I have had a 40 - 60 minute commute for 30 years and love it. In our area the highways are not clogged, just a long drive on country roads. I learned a long time ago to leave the radio off and spend time with myself. I get rid of the day on the way home and enjoy my musings on the way in. A great way to live (if you don’t count the gas).
I suspect that people pretty much live where they have to live based on their priorities (money, kids, access, etc). I lived in the city for a few years and simply did not like all the action.
If I lived in the city now I sure would think about some sort of shelter in a basement where the family could be stashed in bad times. I posted elsewhere that one can make an 8 X 10 vault of cinder block for about $500.00. With two access points and a few days supplies that should get most people through any really serious uprising.
Its been said a number of times on this thread but it bears repeating. Anyone who has recently purchased or is thinking of purchasing a firearm needs to make the time to learn how to use it, care for it, and store it SAFELY. Any member of the family mature enough should also be trained in proper firearms safety.
How to make a basement vault:
Pick a corner with 8 X 10 feet of clear space.
Buy 120 cinder block ($1.10 = $132.00) Block weigh about 20lbs each so you will need a few trips in a car.
Buy 4 bags of quick wall cement ($15.00 = $60.00)
Buy a steel door 36” X 80” = $125.00
Buy 10 2X8 X 8’ for ceiling fill and frame for door ($6.00 = $60.00)
Buy 5# of nails ($5.00)
Stack the block and frame the top and the door with the 2X 8s
Use Tapcon screws ($5.00) to fix the 2 X 8s to the cinder block.
Trowel the quick wall cement on both sides of the block (no laying block)
Install the steel door.
Two vents need to be cut in the ceiling for air (use and old grill cover for a screen).
An electric light would be nice but is not required! We are talking cheap here.
Place supplies and a pick and shovel in the vault in case you have to dig your way out.
The vault can always be used for storage and it is a great place to keep your mother-in-law.
Total cost is approximately $387.00. Figure $500.00 and you can have some extras.
The cost of the mother-in-law? Priceless?
If any of us make it through this thing, it will in no small measure depend on luck, pluck and prudence.
Realist, just look what happened in New Orleans, shortly after the hurrican. People went nuts, violent, looted, etc. What are you expecting? I know it is very painful and scary to think that our fellow human beings could evolve into unconscionable, uncivilized beasts, but we’ve seen it happen, especially under duress and chaos. I personally think it’s wise to prepare for the worst, and be so grateful if it doesn’t happen.
The crux of the matter is that no one knows just how bad the worst could get. Everyone must make that judgement call on their own. Some would consiter me way over the edge, some would scoff because I did not have as much ammo as they thought necessary. I have always thought is wise to get out away from the large population areas if possible. While I think community is necessary to survive many disruptions, it takes lots of technology to substain large numbers of people. If you have faith that technology will hold, by all means stay put. If not make plans to move. If you want to develope a survival mentality, learn to plan long term. Kelly
Kelly, a lot of folks don’t have the resources to move, even if they wanted to. If the flu breaks out and is virulent, a lot of people will get very desparate. That’s when chaos will occur.
I live in an area that has a lot of people who moved here from metro areas. These people are not well off. It is a matter of priorties. Many fokes cannot put food in storage because they need smokes and beer. How important is it? I also wonder how many people you will have in the streets with a virulant flu raging. How many people want to be in a mob of potentially infected people?
would looking back further in history (not Katrina-but Spanish Flu 1918–19) be of any help. Even though cities were much smaller, I wonder if they had water, power, unrest troubles then. Reading John Berry’s book last summer, off hand I don’t recall if any of these took place (course, a more gentle time).
This is conjecture but I suspect that Wal-Mart will have problems with scores of looters. Private homes will not. Most burglars I have known through the years were opportunist who struck while the home owner was away. The largest gang I can recall involved 6 members. If a group was involved, it tended to consist of 3 or 4 members. Usually burglars operate solo or with a look out. Home invaders are a different breed and do it for a rush. In the scope of things, home invaders are rather rare. Most thieves are like water they seek the path of least resistance. The average Joe looking for food is even less likely to burglarize a place that looks occupied. Beware of the unknown that just wants to talk to you. Don’t let him get close to you.
A modest show of force will dissuade most reasonable people. If you want to frighten the would be intruder, show him an ugly gun like an AK-47. Having such a thing brandished in front of them, most reasonable people will find somewhere else to rob.
If deadly force is required, use a shotgun. One pull of the trigger sends 9 to 12 thirty caliber bullets down range. One pull on a legal AK sends only one. The shotgun is by far the better weapon for home defense and is more politically correct.
Cloud9 – at 17:51 - On the job?
Just a thought. It might sound silly. But I was told to carry a small pouch in my pocket. And if someone wanted to attack take out the salt and throw it into their eyes. Martial arts students told me this. I guess it stings pretty bad. And sand isnt very pleasant in your eyes either. How about the good old hair spray in the eyes. Theres lots of handy stuff in the house to stop anyone.
bird watcher Hornet spray works well (and at 15 feet) and is cheap
Excellent idea.
A chainsaw and a roman candle ought to do the trick, and would probably be pretty fun, too. When else could you reasonably excuse using those things in your living room?
bird watcher – at 20:03 - Depending on your state laws, you might be able to purchase a pepper spray that can be attached to your car keys…which is a good place considering that many people are accosted in the parking lots of a mall, etc., when their hands are occupied by carrying packages - but - you are likely to have your car keys in hand….with your new pepper spray. Pepper spray is generally very effective in getting rid of the bad guy.
Satago – at 20:20
Despite what you see in the movies, chainsaws are actually lousy anti-personnel weapons. You rev one up and swing the blade into an opponent, the chian will probably bind on their clothes, flesh, or when they jerk around, and the saw will kick out of your hands. Possibly breaking your fingers or inflicting other severe harm to you in the process. Better to go low tech and use a hand axe.
No opinion on the Roman candle. Except that it probably would be pretty. ^__^
FW - Ok, I’ll believe that. But I’m looking for an overall scare/confusion effect here. I was mostly joking, but a lot of loud noise and completely unexpected things like chainsaws and roman candles can be a very effective detterent, which was the basis of my reasoning. Frankly, I don’t plan on being a target, which is the best defense of all.
If you are just wanting to scare- a laser pointer on a pipe is scarry when you aim it out your window.
I’m 4′11, divorced mom who was a massage therapist for 13 years. I decided to put my then 8 year old son thru TKD cuz I tought he needed a mans influence in his life, (daddy didn’t do much back then)I ended up doing it to as did my daughter. But the point is I was very into healing people, good vibes..blah blah blah. I did a lot of soul searching and relized I will do what ever is neccessary to protect me and mine. Neighbors have seen me chase down would be robbers in the middle of the night( ok not bright but it’s instinctive) I don’t own a weapon yet, been thinking about it, but I do have a dog and beware of dog sign. My daughter took a hunting/gun class last summer she says I should do it to.
Having worked in L.A. through the King riots, the anti-war riots (of the early 70s and the Gulf War), a number of non-famous disturbances and a couple of earthquakes, I have probably seem more than the average Joe of what humanity is at its worst. Yes, there are evil people out there, 18th Street gang has hundreds if not thousands of members. Other gangs are smaller, ranging down to the Grape Street gang, of a couple of dozen. But all think of themselves as B-A-D, even if they are not, and all are armed. However, except during the King riots, they stayed close to home and preyed on their own community; first the liquor stores, then the pawn shops, then the fastfood shops, then any store which had something they wanted. Then torch the building to destroy any evidence.
During the King riot, however, a few did drive in diverse areas, such as the Hollywood Hills, but stayed close to the freeways and were deterred by the sight of armed citizens barricading the streets into their communities. Moral of this one is that many citizens were bemoaning the fact that California had a 15-day waiting period to purchase a firearm. A law which of which they were reverential until it impacted their wellbeing.
Most of the really bad people do not watch the news and have no idea what is happening in the world. They rise at noon and are up partying until 3AM. By the time they do realize something is wrong, they will probably be infected and passing it on to their friends. Most are lost more than 5 miles from home and are paranoid about leaving there. This is not a consolation if you live somewhere near a city which has a gang problem, but for those of us who retired to more isolated environments, there is not as much a worry of a carload of gangbangers driving their lowrider up I-15.
Probably more than I intended to say, but under most circumstances the average person residing in the suburbs or rural areas is not likely to be targeted. Possibly yes, but likely, no.
3L120 - at 20:59
3L120 - your old RMP assignment?
RMP…Rampart? 3=Southwest Division, L=Sergeant, 120-Mid-PM watch. Worked Rampart (2A3) in the early 70s. Might say I have seen the elephant.
On the East coast RMP = Radio Motor Patrol. I pulled the pin in ‘93, and miss it. Be well and stay well brother.
mmmelody47, I was a classification officer in the Florida Prison System for a number of years. It was my job to make parole recommendations. I generally did not carry a gun unless we were hunting men. That usually happened once or twice a month. I retired to teach. I’m old as dirt. I spent more time with convicts than I spent with normal people. After a few years I got into their heads and they got into mine.
The timeless analogy of the turning wheel of fortune can be seen slowly playing out here. Sure, we’re smug and scorn the non-preparing now, and can be righteously fierce as long as our stashes last…
But how many weeks, months, before we HAVES are, in our turn HAVE-NOTS? Supplies gone, children crying, we roaming the streets, scavenging, looting already looted shops and checking empty houses for supplies left by the now dead? Hearing the desperate arguments of others in our plight….
Then approaching other houses, begging for any scraps, seeing the clean, shaven faces of still well-fed people at their windows…
I know. “Another argument for buying guns now, before it’s too late to arm ourselves to survive no-matter-what…”?
And so the wheel turns and the Gods weep at the folly.
I’m preparing for the possibility of civil unrest, but in all actuality, there’s a great chance that people will be too sick & too in shock to start rioting, etc. I may be wrong, but I guess I’m hopeful. The majority of people will get sick. Most will survive, but if they’re sick and/or recovering, I don’t think enough people would be able to cause a huge problem [like Katrina] I guess we’ll just have to wait & see.
Im not to worried about the bird flu as I am with some opportunist who would like to help us in the destuction of parts of our country. Wouldnt be a great time for terrorism. Someone might like to be there to push us over the edge. How much public unrest would we have then.
What if, after months of suffering, the government officials forced the “haves” to share with the “have nots”. We can’t shoot them. Best bet is to use weapons to kill mammals that will feed us. It is spring-if you don’t have a garden, plant one, if you do, make it bigger. It doesn’t take much to bake bread, grow veggies, eat “squirrel stew”. If we get to that point, I’ll share whatever I can scrape together with whomever is left. Consider that in the worse case scenario, half the folks alive will be dead which increases the resources of those left standing. I wont be offering cheese/crackers and the trendiest red wine but I don’t think anyone will mind. We keep hearing how “Fat” Americans have become-maybe it is all for good reason-we’ll last a long time on meager offerings.
If we worst case this there are a lot of factors which come into play. Assuming there is a total breakdown in communications, power and transportation, then most people will not last 3 weeks. They will not have made any plans to stock up for ANY disaster and will quickly run out of food, clean water and gasoline. How much food does an average grocery store have on hand. Enough to feed several hundred for a week? More/less? And depressed ares do not have a lot of large stores, mostly mom and pop liquor stores.
While the looting is going on the flu will be culling the ranks and within a short time there will be a lot less out there. Unless we expect a complete breakdown in government and anarchy to prevail coast to coast, the feds will come up with a plan to distribute food and necessities to its citizens by the end of that 3-week period which I think is the minimum prep period. If not there will be a lot fewer citizens, period. America, as a country, is just not capable of surviving longer than a month without a supply distribution. Most of us are not farmers or able to provide enough food for ourselves for the long (months-years) haul.
3L120 – at 13:50 “Unless we expect a complete breakdown in government and anarchy to prevail coast to coast, the feds will come up with a plan to distribute food and necessities to its citizens by the end of that 3-week period which I think is the minimum prep period.”
Hi 3L. My knee-jerk reaction is to say “look at what happened in New Orleans after Katrina,” but I think it is more appropriate to point to Mike Leavitt’s unending warning that in the case of serious pandemic flu, the Federal Gov won’t be able to help everyone. This is why the focus needs to be on state and local preparedness as well as individual preparedness.
This then is where we need to establish our own comfort levels as to where we believe we each need to be. I surely hope 3 weeks is more than enough, but my experience tells me it may very well not be.
3L120 – at 13:50 - If you haven’t read the post at: Thoughts on Disaster Survival, here on the wikie forum, please do so. Well written and interesting.
mmmelody47 yes the “Thoughts on Disaster Survival” is interesting. Although many things may be useful- many are related to an “exodus”. However in a H2H pandemic there will be no where to go to get out of the way. In a pandemic- it is everywhere. I still say it is better to “shelter in place” or have a prepared site that will welcome you ready and supplied. You cannot take enough “stuff” with you to survive for any length of time. Prepare and stay where you have prepared.
what’s a roman candle?
Fireworks.
DennisC – at 14:15 - My plan exactly, Dennis. I think we all know that prepping for what we hope will never happen - never ends. Learning never stops either. IMHO, everyday I read the FW my family’s chances for survival increase considerably. I thought that I knew a lot and was pretty good with being able survive most anything. Boy, what a wake up call when I started reading here!
Well one can stock up on things you like that someone else could go ugh about. I think I’ll buy some pigs feet in jelly, gefilte fish and borscht when its 75% off. Will take a trip to my local pathmark and look at their discount shelves. I find and sample the strangest things, but then, I grew up on the usual fare plus some of the weirdest items, and I still can stomach things other people think are bizarre, including Haggis, which I like.Gosh we grew up on Mickeys, potatoes roasted on outdoor fires, lungs, hearts, liver, gizzards, rabbit, pigeon and so on. Yet, I just found I can actually stomach leg of lamb. I used to gag at the smell of it cooking. Pigs ears are wonderful, chicken feet a treat. Blood sausage delectable on rye bread.I’m sure we all like things from our childhood. Yet something like Canned Spaghetti-os or ravioli would make me diet and miss that meal.They say the Cajons can make anything that moves delicious, just as the Chinese can, yet I don’t like hundred year eggs which a Philapino relation thought was special. Its all in our cultural backgrounds.God knows I’m telling my neighbors to prep, but they’ll just gets crackers and rice if they come knocking. I’m not prepping to feed my neighbors, but I would make sure their children got something.
I hope the cops who lay down their badges and go home don’t come to my home to take my weapons which I will use to defend my family. To take the weapons sounds extraordinarily stupid. How many criminals actually register their weapons with local PD? Things like this cause me to be ambivalent about cops. On one side I support their issues and on other side I despise their arrogance.
Probably a defensive mechanism. You need swagger when you are stopping and arresting people. But my favorites are the police in Washington State. They seem to be real gentlemen. Of course if you led their life, and saw some of the worst in people you might be just like them.
Not sure if the ‘take the guns’ in NO came from the military or the city gov’t. There was so much flak about it that I doubt it will happen again.
CC…after the first month, if no supplies are moving the majority of people in this country will literally starve to death. Food is too bulky to store without a warehouse and I do not think any local government has one full of food, or meds for that matter. Once the gocery stores are empty, it is ‘Hello hunger’. This is, of course, a worst case scenario, but I do not think any governmental agency is going to be able to feed its citizens. Maybe if the local Reserve and Guard armories had a basement full of MREs, but again, that is the Federal gov’t. Might be a good indicator that things are serious when the semis start arriving at gov’t facilities.
Does anyone really think their local government is up to handling a famine?
Tuesday, April 25, 2006
Headline News
Planning for the pandemic
“This is part one of a three-part series highlighting federal, state and local responses to the bird flu pandemic presented during the New Mexico Press Women’s Association annual conference Saturday in Los Alamos.
Homeland Security Council member Ron Dolin did not mince words… the National Guard would have to be used to squelch “insurrection.”
In addressing why there would be an insurrection, he explained that individuals would choose to take care of themselves and their families and would not want to risk exposure to the flu in order to keep law and order.
…Just like during and in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, the government won’t help individual citizens. Dolin said people must realize that they themselves are the Calvary.”
Mr. Dolin had me at “National Guard.”
Cache Cow, thanks for posting the insurrection comment from Dolin above. I started a thread awhile go where I captured that historically the greatest risk in pandemics is not from the flu at all, but rather from the social breakdown and insurrection that would follow. There are several threads here with Katrina and other natural disasters that corroborate this finding. This has been proven historically true for over 2500 years, yet it is something that very few are conscious of. What good is survival if the system that remains is worse than the plight of those that have departed due to sickness. Many hold to the theory that the dark ages started just shortly after the Justinian plague of 600AD, and the evidence is hard to argue with. There were no property rights, civil rights, or any legal rights to speak of, only might made right, thus the barbarians prevailed and Rome failed. I would be amiss not to point out that Dolins logic of using the National Guard is deeply flawed. The US Guard is already thin due to two international wars and the guard itself will be decimated by disease. Who will be left to enforce order? The entire US military active and reserve and Coast Guard etc. is less than 3 million. Not even enough to afford protection to one city named Bagdhad, just how will they manage New York and Philadelphia and DC? They wont, and those cities will burn since the righteous citizens have been disarmed by dysinformed liberals.
Its OK to be liberal, or a Dem or a Repub, but just keep in mind that there was a reason that the founding fathers linked inalienable rights, and property rights with the right to bear arms. As Samual Colt said, God made all men, the colt keeps them equal. Millions upon millions of citizens have been neutered and made legally helpless in the US by restricting property rights and the right to bear arms. That is not a good spot to be in a pandemic especially since there will be no calvary as noted above. It is worth repeating, that when guns are outlawed only criminals will have guns, and I for one cant wait to see the expression on the faces of those that obliterated a beautifully patriotic bill of rights when thay see the army of criminals that there misinformed policies have created. When H5N1 goes human to human, it will be judgement day in more ways than one.
PF51=Judgment Day
Now we are using some colorful language?
Societal breakdown may be rapid if the number of deaths approaches even 1% of the population in a short period of time.
Historiographer Lou at 06:01… AMEN!!!
Lou, The sad thing is. The experts have been predicting this event for years. The US government knew a pandemic would happen in the near future. This is not a surprise. What have they done to prepare? Almost nothing. Now we run around like chickens with our heads cut off, trying to make “plans”, within a system that can’t handle a pandemic. Hospitals claim they need help or they can’t help the public. HCW are refusing to go to work in a pandemic, etc. Perhaps we/they should have prepared for this event years ago. Again, the experts have been warning of this situation for a long time. The bottom line is, it cost too much to prepare. Great. Now we are standing at what could be the start of a pandemic, unprepared. How much will this lack of leadership cost us? Much more then simple preparation. Of course at the same time this is happening, some folks are trying to disarm the public. A public that will be vulnerable during a pandemic. Why vulnerable? Because our leadership determined preparing for a pandemic years ago was not needed. They did promise to handle any “insurrection”. That’s nice of them. We could have avoided an “insurrection” if proper plans had been made for our infrastructure. Insurrections can happen when good people feel betrayed and are left to starve. I believe the creation of our country was based on a good ole insurrection. I’m sure the history books will have many tales to tell about this unique situation.
Sorry, but if the government spent a trillion dollars, it could not arrest this bug. The nature of politics is to pander to the public. The public demands more programs and less taxes. The majority cannot even imagine a pandemic. If they could, we would all be better prepared. It is foolish to stand around and lament what we could have done or should have done.
Anybody who has ever been burglarized or mugged knows the truth. We are on our own. We have always been on our own. Civility is a very thin skin. The notion that the government can protect us from the eventualities of life is and always has been an illusion.
Cloud9, you hit the nail squarely on the head.
Cloud9, I’m not naive. Helping prepare our infrastructure is a very reasonable request. The nature of government is not to pander to the public. It is far more complex then that. Big money plays a very important role. Lament? Sorry, that’s not what is happening here. We/I am simply stating the obvious. It helps bring clarity to the situation. This can help prevent repeating the same mistake in the future.
A wiki user by the name of The Flu Master posted this a while back and I saved it as a Word document. He makes some very logical and very sound arguments. It is a long posting, but packed with valuable information. Some is excellent, some debatable, but we’re all adults here and can decide for ourselves, what appllies to us:
The Collapse of Social Order ¡°Social order¡± is a delicate thing, and it exists as a psychological barrier that could easily collapse under the right conditions. We all saw this during the L. A. Riots following the Rodney King trial verdict as citizens of L. A. set fire to their own town, yanked people from vehicles and beat them literally to death, and even fired guns at firemen attempting to save their buildings!
More recently we were all witness to the looting, violence and total breakdown of society following Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans.
What allowed this to happen? Simple: the simultaneous melting away of the psychological barrier of ¡°order.¡± Once people realized 911 couldn¡¯t handle the load, or was offline, that the local police were helpless or had simply abandoned their posts, ¡°Law and Order¡± ceased to exist in their minds. They then conducted their lives in the way they always wanted to, but couldn¡¯t because of the police. That is, they ran out to the local stores and just took whatever they wanted (looting). They took our their racial frustration on innocent victims who happened to be driving through the area, and they let loose on a path of destruction that only stopped when men with rifles (the National Guard) were called in to settle things down. In other words, only the threat of immediate death stopped the looting and violence. Rifles work wonders.
Imagine store owners lying prone on the roofs of their stores with AK-47¡Çs, firing at anyone who approached. This is exactly what happened in Los Angeles. But worse, imagine the lawless horde firing at the rescue copters trying to bring in supplies to the desperate masses.
The National Guard eventually got things under control. This event was isolated, however, to one city. Imagine a hundred cities experiencing the same thing. Will the National Guard be able to handle the load? Not likely. What about local police? They aren¡¯t fools; if things look bad enough, they¡¯ll grab their families and head for the hills, just like they did in New Orleans. No pension is worth getting killed for. A few U. S. cities could be transformed into literal war zones overnight. It would require all-out martial law and military force to have any chance whatsoever of bringing order to these streets. And the reality is that there are not enough military in the USA to secure all of the cities if this happens.
This collapse of social order is perhaps the greatest risk of staying in the city during a crisis. What, exactly, would cause this collapse of social order? Lack of three things: food, water, and money. When people run out of food, some will begin ransacking their neighborhood, searching for something to eat. (Remember that in a city, a ¡°neighbor¡± does not mean the same thing as a ¡°neighbor¡± in the country. They are not necessarily your friends.) It won¡¯t take long, then, for violence to take over in some cities.
While certain regions will certainly manage to keep things under control and people will form lines at the local (depleted) Red Cross shelter, other cities will see an explosion of violence. Imagine the gang- infested regions of L. A., Chicago, New York, St. Louis & New Orleans. Do you think those people are going to stand in line and wait? They already have guns; now they finally get to use them. Pent- up racial tensions & hostilities will simply serve as justification for shooting people of the same or other color in order to get their food.
Even if the food somehow gets into the cities, lack of money (due to the government not sending out checks) could cause the same thing. Eventually, lack of money results in looting and mass theft. As the stealing balloons, it also results in a collapse of social order. Water; the same thing (but faster). The collapse of social order is also very dangerous because it doesn¡¯t require any ¡°actual¡± collapse of the power grid, telecommunications, transportation or banking. Social order is a psychological artifact. It is a frame of mind, and any global panic can quickly remove the mental barrier that right now keeps people basically ¡°lawful.¡±
If water stops flowing, here are the events you can expect to see in some of the worse-off cities: ¡¤ Looting of all the grocery stores by the second or third day (remember New Orleans?) ¡¤ Minor outbreaks of violence during the looting. Shop owners, for example, may attempt to defend their shops with firearms (ala L. A. Riots) ¡¤ Mass exodus of residents from the city in search of water ¡¤ Ransacking of any houses or farms within a gas-tank radius of the city, presumably by desperate people with guns ¡¤ Mass traffic jams on the outbound highways as people run out of gas and abandon their vehicles (if bad enough, this could actually block the highways and trap people in the cities) (Remember Hurricane Rita?) ¡¤ Mass outbreak of water-borne diseases as people use streams and rivers as both a water fountain and a bathroom. People crapping upstream are going to infect the people drinking downstream. Very few have any kind of water filtration device. That last point is really critical. Once the water flow stops, disease is going to strike.
The Depletion of Food Supplies The food supplies will likely dwindle quickly as we approach a possible crisis due to people stocking up just in case. Once the crisis actually hits, expect to see breakdowns in the transportation sector that will result in major delays in food delivery. This means food may arrive in sporadic fashion in some cities (if at all).
Once this happens, food suddenly becomes really valuable to people (even though they take it for granted today). And that means any small shipment of food that arrives will be quickly grabbed and eaten or stored. It only takes one week without food to remind people how much they actually need it, so expect the atmosphere to be that of a ¡°near panic¡± if food is delayed by as little as three days. The level of panic will vary from city to city. Some cities or towns may experience very little difficulty receiving food. Others may face near-starvation circumstances. Remember, the cities depend entirely on food shipped in from the farms and food processing companies. Also, note that if there¡¯s a water problem as mentioned in the previous section, and the mass exodus begins, the highways may be jammed up at critical locations, causing gridlock for the trucking industry. If we¡¯re lucky, some trucks will continue to roll. If we¡¯re not, assume that nothing gets through.
A shortage of food ultimately results in the same behavior as a shortage of water. First, people eat what¡¯s in the pantry, then they loot the grocery stores. After that, with all local supplies depleted and no hope on the horizon, they leave the city and start ransacking nearby homes. Some will hunt in nearby forests, but most city-dwellers don¡¯t know how to hunt. In any case, anyone with the means to leave the city will likely do so soon after their food shortage begins.
The Failure of the Power Grid: Nothing is as suddenly obvious nor has such a gigantic psychological impact as the failure of the power grid. When the electricity stops, almost everybody knows it at the same instant (unless it happens at night). Naturally, during the first few hours of the power failure, if it occurs, people will assume it¡¯s a temporary situation. Maybe a tree fell on some power lines, or perhaps a transformer blew up somewhere nearby. They¡¯ll sit tight and wait for the power to come back on.
What if it doesn¡¯t? Then the city faces a severe problem.
Without power, obviously, everything shuts down. Within hours, the looting begins in the more crime-ridden cities (we saw this in New York a few decades ago.). The longer the power stays off, the worse the social disorder.
The loss of power will bring the entire city to a halt. While vehicles may get around for a few more days (using whatever fuel they have left), businesses obviously won¡¯t be operating. Houses that depend on electricity for heat will quickly reach Winter temperatures, freezing many occupants to death.
While those that depend on electricity for Air Conditioning will just as quickly reach Summer temperatures, resulting in death from heat stroke. Hospitals and police stations may have generators on hand, with a few days worth of fuel, but in short order, that will be depleted, too.
But the water treatment plant will almost certainly be off-line without power, causing all the events mentioned in the water section, above. Let¡¯s face it, the power is the worst thing to be without in the city. If you have power, you can survive a food shortage, perhaps even a short water shortage. But without power, all bets are off.
If you have a ¡°bug-out¡± vehicle stocked and ready to go (see below), this might be the time to bail.
Solutions in the City Okay, so you¡¯re stuck in the city. You¡¯ve made the decision to stay. You¡¯ve read the problems above, you believe they make sense, and you¡¯re intelligently frightened. What now? You really have two strategies. You can: ¡¤ Stay and defend your house ¡¤ Bug out (leave the city and head for the hills) Important! This is not an either/or situation. You can begin by staying in your house and assessing the situation. You¡¯ll want to have a ¡°bug-out¡± vehicle stocked and ready, just in case, if you can afford one, but you may never actually choose to bug out. You¡¯ll have to be the ultimate judge of this. Just remember that when you bug out, you face major risks and disadvantages. Among these: 1. You¡¯re severely limited in how much you can carry - 2. You have limited range due to fuel - 3. You expose yourself to social chaos, roadblocks, random violence, etc. - 4. Your house will certainly be looted while you¡¯re gone - 5. You run the risk of mechanical breakdowns of your vehicle - 6. You must have a place to go that you know is in better shape than where you currently are.
In general, unless you have a specific, known safe place as your final destination, I don¡¯t advise people to bug out. Just ¡°heading for the hills¡± is a very poor plan. You might not make it. But heading for Grandma¡¯s house or some known, safe place could be a very good plan indeed, depending on whether Grandma is ready, willing and able to accept you!
For these reasons (and more), staying and defending your house is sometimes the only reasonable course of action, even if it seems dangerous. For the most part, looters and people looking for food are going to have plenty of easy victims, so if you show a little willingness to use force to defend your property, you¡¯ll likely send people on to the next house.
That is, until the next house is already empty and you appear to be the last house on the block with any food and water left. If you¡¯re in a bad enough area, your neighbors may ¡°gang up¡± on you and demand your supplies or your life. This is truly a worst-case scenario, and unless you literally have a house full of battle rifles and people trained to use them (and the willingness to shoot your neighbors), you¡¯re sunk. This is why the best situation by far is to keep your neighbors informed and help them get prepared. Then you (both your member and non-member neighbors) can act as a group, defending your neighborhood and sharing the supplies you have with anyone willing to help defend you.
When you have this kind of situation going, your neighbors realize you are their lifeline. You supply them with food and water, and they will help support you because they are, in effect, supporting their own lives. The best situation is when your neighbors and other ward members have their own food and water supplies. That way, they aren¡¯t depleting yours, and they have a strong motivation for getting together with you defend your neighborhood. (More on this below.)
Storing (and Hiding) Your Food Storing food is just as important in the city as in the country, but hiding it is far more important. That¡¯s because in the worst areas, marauders will be going from house to house, demanding your food or your life. If you¡¯re dumb enough to put everything you own in the obvious places, you might as well not buy it in the first place. They will find it. To count on having any amount of food left over after the marauders break in, you¡¯ll need to hide your food.
One alternative is to plan on defending your home with force. If you have enough gun-wise people in the house, and enough firearms and ammo, you can probably pull this off. But most of us aren¡¯t nearly as experience with firearms as the gang members. A better alternative might be to plan on bringing you supplies to your ward/stake building where all of the Saints can both pool and defend their resources. This of course will depend greatly on your local Bishop and Stake President.
Back to hiding: the best way to hide your food is to bury it. You¡¯ll need airtight containers, long-term food that won¡¯t rot and you¡¯ll need to plan ahead. Bury your food at night so nobody will notice, and make sure you don¡¯t leave the map on the refrigerator door! (Better to memorize it!) Try to get the ground to look normal after you¡¯re all finished. You¡¯ll want to bury your food as early as possible because it gives the grass time to regroup over the spot. If you¡¯re in an area that snows, you¡¯ll have a great concealment blanket! Most food marauders won¡¯t go to the trouble to dig up food, especially if you insist you don¡¯t have any.
Best plan: Have some smaller amount of food stashed around the house, letting them find something. Better to give them something and send them on their way. The art of hiding your food is an ancient one. You¡¯ve got to get creative. Use the walls, the floors, and the structure of the house. If hiding your food is simply not an available alternative, then try not to advertise it. Keep it put away in your house or garage in as discreet a manner as possible. Don¡¯t make a point of telling people that you have a years supply (or more). Word gets around fast that Bro. Jones has a ton of food in his garage. Boxes of food fit nicely under beds, behind furniture, in the attic, etc.. Be Creative!!
To sum up the food storage, you really have three strategies here: ¡¤ Store it all in your house and plan on defending it by force. ¡¤ Bury it in your yard in case you get overrun by looters. ¡¤ Store part of it in your house, and hide the bulk of it. ¡¤ Relocate all of it as soon as you recognize a major disaster is in progress
Defending your house is a crucial element on your stay-in-the-city plan. Make your house your fortress, and hold drills to help other family members practice some of the more common activities such as hiding, defending, evacuating, etc. Some useful items for home defense include: ¡¤ A guard dog ¡¤ Pepper spray ¡¤ Firearms ¡¤ Smoke bombs (military-grade) ¡¤ Trip wires
Let¡¯s go over these: The guard dog is certainly a welcome addition to any family trying to defend their house. Although he probably eats a lot of food, the investment is worth if. Dogs also tend to sleep light, so let them sleep right next to the food storage areas, and make sure you sleep within earshot. If the dog barks, don¡¯t consider it an annoyance, consider it an INTRUSION.
Pepper spray is a great alternative to the firearm. It will incapacitate people and certainly give them a painful experience to remember. On the downside (potentially), it might just remind them that next time they come back for food, they better kill you first. So understand the limitations of pepper spray. Firearms are useful for obvious reasons. In the worst-case scenario, when looting is rampant, you may have to actually shoot someone to protect yourself or your family. If you¡¯re squeamish about pulling the trigger under these circumstances, don¡¯t plan to stay in the city. Use the ¡°bug out¡± plan instead. Smoke bombs can be useful for covering a planned escape from your house. You can purchase high-volume smoke bombs that will quickly fill up any house with an unbreathable cloud of military-grade white smoke.
Trip wires are great perimeter defenses. You can buy them from Cheaper Than Dirt (they run a few hundred dollars). They will give you early warning if someone is approaching. You can connect the tripwires to flares, shotgun shells, light sticks or other warning devices. This way, you can have an audible or visible alert, your choice.
In addition to these devices, you can make significant fortification- style improvements to your home. While none of these are very affordable, they certainly help defend your home: ¡¤ Replace glass windows with non-breakable Plexiglas ¡¤ Add steel bars to the windows ¡¤ Replace all outside door locks with heavy-duty deadbolts ¡¤ Replace all outside doors with steel doors, preferably without windows ¡¤ Remove bushes and other shrubs where people might hide ¡¤ Black out the windows entirely to avoid light escaping at night (similar to what residents of London did during the WWII bombing raids) ¡¤ Build secret hiding places for food, coins, or even people ¡¤ Create escape hatches or passageways ¡¤ Rig pepper-spray booby traps
These aren¡¯t as absurd as they might at first sound. Many people living in rough cities already have steel bars covering their windows, and removing extra bushes and shrubs is a well-known tactic for making your home a safer place.
LIGHT To light your home when there¡¯s no electricity, try the following: ¡¤ Use LED flashlights and rechargeable solar-charged batteries. You can buy all these items from the Real Goods catalog ¡¤ Use propane-powered lanterns. You can find these in the camping section of your local Wal-Mart. Be sure to purchase extra mantles and store lots of propane. ¡¤ Purchase quality oil lamps from Lehman¡¯s and stock up on oil. You can also purchase cheap kerosene lamps from the Sportsman¡¯s Guide or Wal-Mart, then simply purchase and store extra kerosene. ¡¤ Buy extra candles. ¡¤ Purchase lots of olive oil. Not only can you cook with it (and besides, it¡¯s a lot healthier than corn or vegetable oil), olive oil also burns as a clean candle fuel. You can float a wick in a jar half-full of olive oil and light the wick. Viola, a home-made candle. Olive oil is a fantastic item for your storage anyway because even if you purchase all the grains in the world, you¡¯ll still need cooking oil, and you obviously can¡¯t buy powdered cooking oil. Well-stored olive oil can last for thousands of years.
Gun Control in the Cities No matter how you felt or thought about gun control in the past, it¡¯s time to face disaster-induced reality. The gun-control politicians (and the people who supported them) have placed Americans in a situation where not only can the police not protect us in a timely manner, but we cannot lawfully defend ourselves. Criminals unlawfully have firearms; citizens lawfully don¡¯t. Intentionally or otherwise, gun-control supporters have created a situation where an unfortunate number of innocent men, women and children are going to be in danger during a crisis simply because they could not obtain the tools of self-defense. It also happens that the cities where the rioting will likely be the worst are precisely the cities where firearms are most likely to be banned from lawful ownership (and where criminals may wield near- absolute power for a while.). Perhaps when society recovers from it, we can review the fallacy in the cause / effect logic that keeps people voting for gun-control laws, but in the mean time, millions of people are going to have to resort to breaking the law in order to protect their families. And yes, you too will have to resort to breaking the law if you are to acquire a firearm in an area where guns are entirely banned from private citizens (like New York, Los Angeles, etc.). After the disaster hits, if the rioting gets really bad, we¡¯re going to see local police begging law-abiding citizens for help. Your firearm will be a welcome addition to the force of law and order, believe me. No local cop is going to mind you having a handgun if you¡¯re manning a roadblock protecting a neighborhood of families with children. Act responsibly, tell them what you¡¯re doing, and they¡¯ll probably give you a big thanks. But if you¡¯re carrying a gun while you smash a window of the Wal-Mart and walk off with a stereo; well that¡¯s a different story. Be prepare to get shot. See, cops don¡¯t mind private ownership nearly as much as we¡¯ve all been led to believe. I know, I work with law enforcement officers in a small town, and I ask them about topics like this. When the crisis hits, they¡¯ll be more than happy to have your cooperation. We¡¯re all going to need as many law-abiding gun-toting citizens as possible in order to fend off the criminals and establish some degree of order. One More Reason To Move Out If you really feel you need a firearm to protect yourself and your family, your best bet may be to move to a city or state where people are a lot more accepting of firearms. You¡¯d be surprised what a difference the locale makes. Check the gun laws in any state you¡¯re considering moving to. Obviously, ¡°cowboy¡± states like Arizona, Texas and Wyoming will have fewer restrictions on firearms (and, interestingly, they have less of a problem with gun violence). States where the population is more dense (like California & New York) tend to have much greater restrictions on private ownership of firearms. Bugging Out Suppose it¡¯s July 14, 2006, and you¡¯ve changed your mind about this city thing. You happened to be right smack in the middle of one of the worst-hit cities in the country. The looting is getting worse, the power has been out for two weeks, and your water supplies are running low. You still have enough gas in your truck to make it out of town if you can get past the gangs, that is. You¡¯ve decided to BUG OUT! Some basic pointers: ¡¤ Don¡¯t try to bug out in a Chevy Geo. You will likely need a big heavy 4¡¿4 truck in order to go off-road and around stalled vehicles ¡¤ Get something that can carry at least 1000 pounds of supplies. A big 4¡¿4 pickup will do nicely! Yes, it requires more fuel, but you can carry the fuel as cargo. ¡¤ Don¡¯t bug out unless you can have someone ride shotgun, literally. You will need an armed passenger in case you run into not-so-nice people WHAT TO TAKE [Overly simplistic. See my booklet Evacuation and Relocation.] Ahh, the bug-out supply list. All this will fit in your truck. Here¡¯s what you should take if you¡¯re preparing to bug out with two people: ¡¤ Your 96 hour kits for each person in the vehicle ¡¤ 20 gallons of water ¡¤ 40 gallons of extra fuel or more (and a full gas tank) WHERE TO GO As mentioned earlier, if you have a designated place of refuge (Grandma¡¯s house, a cabin in the woods, etc.), head straight for it. If not, you¡¯re basically driving anywhere you can go, so try to head for an area that forested and near a creek or river where you can get some water. Conclusion Choosing to remain in the city is a rational choice for many people in many situations. However, as you have seen from the dangers described here, the further away you can get from the population centers in general, the better your chances of surviving. Most people, perhaps yourself included, have a difficult time actually accepting that a major disaster is going to be as bad as described in this report. And after all, if you leave the city, sell out, quit your job, move to the country, and then nothing bad happens? You will have disrupted your life, and you may find yourself broke, jobless, and homeless. You COULD assume it will be a mild event, which I suppose is also a credible possibility. In that case, surviving in the city will be quite feasible, especially if you have neighbors that can support your efforts and you don©öt live in a dangerous city with high racial tensions. However, the very nature of a major disaster means that if only one or two major infrastructure components goes down, the ripple effect will quickly create a much worse scenario. It seems there is very little room for ¡°mild¡± effects unless they are miniscule. The most likely scenario at this point clearly points to massive disruptions, severe shortages in food and water, loss of power in some areas, and a breakdown of social order in certain areas where the population density is high. But you can survive anything with good planning, an open mind, and plenty of practice. Why not start now? ________________________________________________ Arizona Flu Pandemic Help And Support Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PandemicFlu/ ¡°Chance Favors The Prepared Mind.¡±
About using pepper spray as a defensive weapon, yes, it’s great stuff and will repel MOST (not all) people, but do not spray it inside your house unless you can safely go outside, and then return later to air the place out. Otherwise, you too will fall victim to the pepper sprays effect. If that happens, it will just be a matter of whether you or the bad guy recover first.
Cache Cow- Thanks for the repeat post because now I want to consider collecting material for public education. Here is something I’ve saved, that is good to have to show people and community leaders, there’s no such thing as - the government will be dispersing food supplies if there is a shortage.
Found at: http://g2.wnd.com/article/articleview/l017/1/4/ Food: U.S. Achilles’ heel? Publishing date: 02.02.2006 22:20 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The U.S. has been giving away a lot of food in recent years. So much food, in fact, has American given away that its own emergency food reserves are shockingly low.
There was a time, not too long ago, that by law the U.S. government was forced to maintain emergency food provisions for every man, woman and child in the country for three years.
That was considered good stewardship through much of the 1960s. It was a program put together by men, who read the Bible and recalled the idea Joseph gave the Pharaoh, to avoid famine in the seven lean years.
But then the political winds of change began to blow through America. There were calls in Congress to bail out starving nations throughout the world. There were even actions to bail out America’s enemies -like the Soviet Union.
Within 20 years, the grain elevators were virtually empty - yet the amount of food given away as direct aid to foreign nations continued to increase.
By 1996, the U.S. Department of Agriculture claimed - and it was something of a hollow boast - that there was enough emergency food in storage to provide for every American in the cities for three days. The total was five days, the USDA said, for those in rural areas in the event of a national emergency.
Then came Sept. 11,2001. There was talk of nuclear terrorism, biological and chemical weapons threats. America had seen that it was not invulnerable to massive, unforeseen attacks. Rogue nations such as North Korea and Iran were developing nuclear weapons and the missiles to fire them.
The Department of Homeland Security was formed and hundreds of billions were spent to make Americans feel safe. But the food supply continued to dwindle. By 2003, the USDA stopped counting in terms of “days” for emergency food supplies, because there was less than one day for every American. The new calculations were made not in terms of time, but in terms of pounds. They were made not in terms of how much food was actually stored and awaiting delivery, but rather how much was in the economy including what was currently being harvested, what was on store shelves, what was en route in the transportation system. The federal government claimed, under this new formulation, that there were 77 pounds of food per person in the U.S. at any given moment. Yet the number has continued to plummet more rapidly than ever before.
By September 2005, there were only 15.7 pounds of food for every American. That represented an 80 percent decrease in just two years.
According to USDA figures analyzed by Alan Guebert of the Farm & Food Report, the decrease gets worse every day. Of the 15.7 pounds of emergency food per person, 11 pounds consists of unprocessed wheat - of questionable value in times of emergency. The rest consists of non-fat dry milk, cheese, corn, peanuts and lentils. Even after the Katrina disaster, almost no one is talking about food supplies in America. In addition, 99.9 percent of Americans would never guess which federal agency is responsible for managing emergency food and shelter needs in the country.
Do you think it’s FEMA - the Federal Emergency Management Agency?
Do you think it’s Homeland Security?
Do you think it’s the Department of Defense?
Do you think it’s the Department of Agriculture?
That would all be good guesses. But they are all wrong. The agency, in charge since 2003, is the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). The reason? The federal government decided HUD was the best agency to handle the needs of the “homeless.” But since HUD’s “expertise” with providing for the homeless is in peacetime, in times of non-emergencies, it is questionable whether any Americans would ever see any food, if a real national disaster struck.
NJ Preppie - great article. Thank you for reposting it. I had forgotten about it and it is indeed worth sharing with local officials and public policy folks.
There are a number of books out that though fiction, provide probable scenarios in such a post apoplectic world as a major pandemic could cause. “Lucifer’s Hammer” by Larry Niven is probably one of the best known but there is another that I think more closely mirrors what could occur in a pandemic event called “Dies The Fire” by SM Stirling. Basically the scenario is a space storm of sorts strikes the earth rendering all technology inoperable, including any type of explosive chemical reactions so gasoline engines no longer work etc. Again though fiction, it does provide some ideas on how quickly social order can break down, the depths (and heights) to which otherwise civilized people can fall, the difficulties (if not impossible for many) of living totally on your own, and so on. It even addresses some of the skills needed to live & survive, those skills many of our forefathers looked upon as common place. There is also another thread in the wikie that everyone with (or without) these concerns should read., “Thoughts on Disaster Survival”.
The essentials are food energy and medicine. Golf clubs can wait. Basic food suplies such as flour, oil and baby food will probably be the focus. Poptarts and potato chips are low need items. We will focus on the basics fast and I think they will get through to most places.
I am over 50 and intend to be the outside goto guy. I plan on living in a tent for 2 years while my family lives inside the fenced in part of the yard. People over 50 don’t usually get the bird flu.
Some parts of the country will probably have severe problems auch as the Miami-West Palm stretch. They have ocean on one side and the everglades on the other. More than 50 miles of wall to wall people.
When the pandemic seems ?imminant? I hope to start a goto guy community club. (can’t spell)
I am in the minority. I read this all and I think, oh my. Then I look out the glass enclosure where I am sitting with the shifting shadows, the sun shining through new greenery, the lake glittering below, and I think so what. When this dark age is upon us, perhaps this will happen. Perhaps it will be worse, perhaps I won’t know because I’ll be dead quickly. I don’t intend to worry about it this moment, tomorrow or until it actually happens. I don’t intend to lose any sleep about it or bury food, or think about the breakdown of society. I intend to enjoy the life I have today, prepare to a certain extent, read the flu wiki, keep up on the encroaching menace and spend time here intermitantly. But I will not lose hope or dwell endlessly on worse case scenarios.
Sometimes part of looting is aimless anger leading to arson. Possibly later on looters would just be driven and desperate, but in the beginning of the crisis, I really don’t want to be their target. I worry about barricading myself in securely, then being trapped by fire.
Lily, you should write a book… you have such a poetic way of putting things with a good range of material:)
There’s an idea: we’ll need people to chronicle this part of history too…. many memoirs! Maybe one will start here…
One indicator of potential problems would be if the National Guard/Reserve units abroad are suddenly sent back home. There will also be a call-up of inactive Guard/Reserve individuals and requests that eligible retired and former military volunteer for some sort of active duty. There are also many state military forces, who act in place of the Guard if they are away, such as the California State Reserve Forces (SMRF, better known as Smurfs) and California Naval Reserve. They will be getting information about potentially being activated.
IF, and I stress the IF, things really get bad, police will be placed under military control and martial law proclaimed. Under Federal law, this can mean Use of Force guidelines are a lot more lenient, and those in uniform who do so are protected by government policy. Not pretty but I was a base Provost Marshal and went through classes on what the changes would be under martial law. Look at N.O. and what happened there. And from experience in the King riots, just because the police or military say they will be there to protect you, once they move on the looters will come back, so best be prepared. On that cheery thought, remember, I said IF, and I think the IF factor sits at about 10%, leaving 90% for the IF NOT.
Are prospects so bleak as all this, above?
Surely governments, the powers that be, are able to see that the area most possibly controllable, where minimal costs of money, manpower and protecton can pay the highest dividends, is in the maintenance of the utilities: electricity, water, sewage, piped gas, telephones, radio/tv, etc.
The entirety of state power, military and police, laws and regulations, will be brought to bear in the assured supply of those vitals.
Nothing of comparable investment can pay a fraction of the return. Conversely, without ‘utilities’, let me call them, all else becomes nearly or totally impossible. No electricity means no water or sewage pumping, no banks, ATMs, hospitals crippled entirely, etc etc as all wikians seem to know.
Lord, even little old Australia’s ‘National Pandemic Plan’ spells it out EXPLICITLY: antivirals, vaccines etc go first to vaccine manufacturers, public utility employees, police, etc. And these, ordered long ago, are stored on site already. Also we have our own (CSL) vaccine production plant, with orders committed exclusively to Australia and being now expanded. Surely the US government, with limitless money and America’s vast industrial capacity, has done all this and far, far more! Come on!
Why do so many posters assume failure of this most basic element of the infrastructure? Of course social dsruption would follow failure of these basic necessities. I think more checking on this would reassure the many painfully anxious on this wiki.
Just a friendly suggestion from a sympathetic Aussie. I may have picked this up by an utterly wrong-handle, so I look forward to being corrected….
Cheere!
Hi Nikolai---Sydney. We used to have a saying here in America, “Remember the Alamo.” For many the chant has become, “Remember New Orleans.”
We have seen time and again that once rioting begins, it is very difficult to get back under control. This is frightening for two reasons. 1) It seems to takes a lot less for people to riot here these days, and 2) In a panflu situation, we may very well have significantly less numbers of police and National Guard to call on to put down civil unrest. Hopefully, this will also mean there are less people capable of civil unrest. I honestly hope we never have to find out. : )
Cache Cow – at 14:46 “Will also mean there are less people capable of civil unrest”
Luckily people with the flu will not feel like rioting much. My guess (emphasis on guess) is that the cities will be doing all they can to cart away bodies, human waste and trash. (Notice some have plans on using skating rinks for cold storage of bodies, and such). Keeping the water flowing will be the first priority. If they expect only 1/2 of the professional health care to show up on the job (and they are the ones that get the Tamiflu)- how many trash collectors will show up for work - and with no gas for the trucks. People that get out in the streets with the trash and waste will likely not stay well very long- - especially if the water goes off and people have to put human waste out in the streets. Again, a guess, but looting will happen for the first few weeks then it will be less “profitable” for people to go out and loot. People that do loot and riot will not stay healthy long and many will be shot.
I think that looting will increase after a few weeks 1) people of that mind will finally realize thier opportunity 2) some of them will have nothing to lose 3) they may be getting over thier sickness (if they don’t die) by then 4) they will be getting hungry and desperate 5) those that would not normally do such things would do so because they are getting hungry as are thier children 6) there will be a psychological feeding frenzy
Lily, That’s a great choice if you don’t have children or other family members who depend on you. Watching my 4yr old die of starvation because I didn’t prepare would be a shame. So I’ll keep on preparing even if I’m viewed by some as a pessimist. I call it being a responsible parent.
Nikolai-Sidney- My first impression coming here too, was that power failure expectation, was a little extreme. However, finally I realized the assessment came from those in the know, not nutty survivalists. The power plants say they can not replace workers (and their workers are specialists today) and continue operating, if they have over a 10% absentism. This made me go “whoa”. With technology, one person does the work that many used to do. But you can’t grab someone off the street to understand how to run the computerized systems and robotics that are unique to each power station. They are running with an efficient low-man power work force. We are more fragile with each decade of “progress”. A pandemic (with a bad CFR) will test what we don’t realize we have created.
Roman – at 15:21 Watching my 4yr old die of starvation because I didn’t prepare would be a shame. So I’ll keep on preparing even if I’m viewed by some as a pessimist. I call it being a responsible parent.
Well said
Roman, I speak only for myself. My children and grandchildren will do what they think best. I am not as simple as I might seem to you or as oblivious of the risks and why many of you parents worry as much as you do. You do what you can, and the rest is beyond our control. I don’t say don’t prepare to whatever extent you feel needed. I do say do not let it take over your lives.
Nikolai, I am also concerned about severe weather this season. Didn’t you guys just have a Cat 5 in Darwin? If powerlines go down, it may very difficult to get them fixed asap. Lets not forget our “friends” taking advantage of a pandemic. This possible situation leaves us wide open for several events. Having a generator may buy us some time for repairs, etc.
Cache Cow. We all think differently, my views are my own and not meant to upset any of you. Again I reiterate, prepare however much you feel is needed, don’t obsess. Sorry if I have offended you all. I;ll keep my views to myself next time I feel things are getting overheated.
Hi Lily: my response was for Roman. I started at the most recent post and scrolled up to his. I am a father, so I liked what he said. If it was in response to an ongoing discussion between you two, my post was not a comment on that. : )
Lily at 15:40 - One of the great things about FW is that there are so many points of view, which make us all consider things from different angles. Don’t hold back your opinions, they’re as valid as those of anyone else, and they contribute to the wiki’s balance.
Lily, There is a fine line between apathy and action. This situation warrants an incredile amout of research and preparation. That is the only way to succeed and survive. I guess there is always luck and faith. A monk once told me a story about another monk who believed he had found nirvana and had nothing to fear. Why nothing to fear? Because he believed everything was illusion. One day he sat down in the road and watch an elephant approach. He smiled and closed his eyes. “The elephant is nothing” “the elephant is nothing” as the elephant approached the monk went into a deep meditation expecting the the elephant to pass right through him. Splat! He was crushed under the elephant. When he reached “heaven” he cried out “How could this happen?” The great spirit answered “ Do you remember that little voice inside your head that was yelling, GET OUT OF THE WAY, IT’S A FRICKING ELEPHANT!” That was me. I tried to warn you. Listen next time. This possible pandemic is real. We can “get out of the way” by simply taking the time to prepare. This may take up a great deal of our time/life. Complex situations usually do.
Today I noticed Micron doing something about the Birds in their water storage facility. I think they may be waking up.
Lily, It’s nothing personal. I respect your view. We are all trying to figure this out. I wish you well.
Is it possible that myself and my engineers could be ordered to keep things running. Even though we would prefer to be at home.
Roman,
EXACTLY! We need a good measure of research and preparation as well as luck and faith. God protected Noah, but it didn’t mean he didn’t have to prepare the ark. I think these things work hand in hand. The mere fact that you all are on the wikie is proof that God is warning you. Prepare your Ark, and still count on faith. Remember, everyone of Noah’s time thought he was nuts too.
Nikolai…we are concerned about utilities going under because they probably will. Maybe in Aussieland they are not gonna but here they will. Every time there is a big windstorm, about 2ce a month, my power goes out. Some drunk runs into a power pole, the power goes out. Crews can repair the damage in 2–10 hours, but if there are no repair crews???
When we talk about potential riotous behavior, didn’t you folks have some disruptive bahavior of your own a few months ago? So it can happen everywhere, not just in the USA. And when it starts and law enforcement is not there to quell it, believe me, it spreads and spreads.
I can’t think of anything I have bought that does not have a utilitarian use around the house and will not get used if nothing happens. Well, maybe some spare filters for the gas mask, but even that can come hin handy in the shop as my old respirator has disintegrated and I am tired of inhaling sawdust. That is the way to prep, by buying things you use anyway, just more of it. They will get used, eventually. For me that means buying canned sardines and not canned lima beans.
“NIdaho – at 15:59 Today I noticed Micron doing something about the Birds in their water storage facility. I think they may be waking up. “
Recently at another semiconductor plant in another state, I saw signs in the restrooms advising to “wash hands” to stay healthy. This was out in the plant and not near the cafeteria. It also didn’t have the regulations for food workers quoted on it, just a “stay healthy” message. I haven’t seen these before and it made me wonder if they were thinking of BF.
In the cities or the country I would fear uncontrolled fires as much the “primo” predator on this planet, Man. In the early days out here on the prairie the pioneers feared prairie fires as much or more as they feared the Indians. And sometimes the Indians started them.
Even a low CFR pandemic could create conditions for a firestorm. Getting those controlled are difficult even in the best of conditions.
MM-
Now that’s a curveball that just struck out the batter here.
Wow, wildfires are a serious consideration in this matter. Have we explored that anywhere yet? Arson or natural?
In australia the annual bushfire season is a worry in any year. With half the firefighters out with flu? *Shudder*
mm, Wow, I never considered that. Thank you. I live in a townhouse connected to others. It is very possible folks will be using heaters, camp stoves, etc. Organizing a community fire squad/patrol would be an excellent idea. Thanks again. This wiki rocks!
NS1: We have touched on the subject in the past and then let it drop. There seems no remedy. Controlling firestorms in a city or wildfires in the country requires coordinated activity by a fully-functioning society with sophisticated equipment. Water pressure, chemicals, fuel, specialized aircraft, communications, etc.---Will any or all be available, not to mention the manpower?
Most monasteries required the monks to patrol the grounds at night in case of fire. They carried a horn, radio and extinguisher. Some places had no water pressure, etc. The idea was to catch the fire early. This saved many sleeping monks.
A fire extinguisher, or two is cheap insurance. How about keeping a sand bucket handy. And a fire alarm only needs a battery, one for the kitchen and for bedrooms. Have the kids know what to do if there is a fire. Sand would probably quench a small fire. Historical Houses had leather buckets for sand I think.
That is something I have been concerned with as well. I have decided to take down more trees this year surrounding my home. I would expect this to be a big problem. Forest fires are common here and will not stop for any reason. I do feel we could save our homes or most of them. We keep some supplies separated from the main home because of this worry. My biggest fears are this.
1. Forest Fires
2. Out of control government (meaning some agency deciding to take what they want and thus cause the start of a conflict)
3. Family members infecting our small area from the outside. There are a few members out of my area. I will quarantine them inside the barn until I am sure they are safe for the community.
4. Wild animals looking for food. (Since bird flu affects the food chain) Wild dogs as well. Imagine a pack of rotwilers and pit bulls starving with hunger
5. Most importantly I am concerned that I could be forced to work in Boise City. There is one of the biggest semiconductor memory plants there. Since these chips are in everything, a constant supply is needed just to sustain our technology. I happen to be one of the better known engineers/managers and have experience in multiple platforms. Since I spend allot of time there, this could come down while I am there working. I have noticed that the government seems to be only interested in preserving itself. So technology will be very important to keep in control of a population who is angery, scared and hungry.
NIdaho — 16:01 asks
“Is it possible that myself and my engineers could be ordered to keep things running?”
Brother, believe it or die. See my post today on “Gas Water Power” thread for a HINT of what you can expect. Executive Orders and Martial Law can be marvelously persuasive, and if any simply sit down and refuse, there are Federal Prison cells—or, as they are then self-defined ‘terrorists’ there is the tropical paradise at Guantanamo, Cuba.
“But this can’t happen in America! I know my rights!”
LOLOL in Sydney, Australia.
Nikolai,
If that were to happen, we would have bigger problems than water and electricity. Talk about the complete collapse of a government - and with Martial Law - the opportunity for a coup. Bad bad plan. Bad plan.
This may be a contrarian view. If I could time the first wave of a pandemic, I would have it arrive at the start of a prolonged winter deep freeze. I fear Man more than the Virus or the Elements. At least in the northern two-thirds of the U.S. roaming by gangs and looting would be minimized with such timing. Isolation would be winter-imposed to some degree. And people would have to keep warm as best they could. The authorities would have a buffer for the shock of the first wave.
Unless there is a power problem that come along with a storm, Pan Flu and then all bets are off
Another concern I have is this: If this where to happen and last 6 - 18 months. When this is over the banks will be there to take alot of property. During the depression knowone controlled the banks and people where thrown out on the streets. My area already has a very bad perception of federal government. Believe me there are alot that expect the govenment to make a power grab. If they do or there is a perception that they are, the National Guard will not be backing the Feds. At the end of the day they will defend locals first.
Without the added burden of societal disorder I think we could keep “the grid” going, just barely, and haphazardly.
Medical Maven -
Or they might just resort to burning things to keep warm!
anon: Well, let us hope we are “lucky” because “smart” seems out of the question at this point.
If you have a wood stove, a blizzard might be a blessing!
You said a mouthfull. Luck and prayer!
NJ. Preppie – at 21:24 If you have a wood stove, a blizzard might be a blessing!
If it hits- I pray for it to do so in the winter.
I have propane, pellet stove and a wood stove. I have found that I can use a handful of pellets and a little alcohol/oil to make a nice small fire to boil in my “Kelly Kettle”. They are great. One handful and you can boil a quart of water for soup, rice, tea,….. The wood pellets are just so easy to use and the bags stack nice. Unlike cord wood the rats and things don’t get into them.
The kettle is a little pricy but it is great with a thermos to cook rice and such and they use very very little fuel.
On banks, they are only your friend when you pay on time. One of the solutions found during the great depression was penny auctions. Banks auctioned a farm. The local farmers closed the bidding. Farmers bought the properties for pennies and turned around and gave them back to their original owners. Home owners could band together and do the same thing. Foreclosures are auctioned on the court house steps.
Hello to all, I plan on inviting my neighbors that live close,(no I’m not PollyAnna) to stay warm in my house and and feed them if need be. My neighbors are good people-it’s not a problem, I have have been prepping for the last 14 months. The problem will be if no one cares, and that’s it in a nut-shell. Yes, I have self-preservation plans in place. I would like to think and belive “I would do the right thing” and the last thing I would want to do is “kill” someone because they knock at my door wanting food, which I could give them, or they need news, directions, etc. I’m just as worried as you are, but is it not possible that we are going to get though this mess like they did in 1918 (without killing a bunch-of-people) ‘and that’s even if it happens?
Dee Dee - I hope you are right. But I think times have changed. I for one do like killing another human being. However as an ex-soldier it was required. It changes a person for the rest of your life. That is why people from other wars have a different outlook on life. When you have been confronted with the worse humanity has to offer, you can never look through rose colored glasses again. I have lived in third world countries and understand how our supply system is bases on a just in time system. That is what allow corporations to make so much money. But if there is any distruption in that system things start to run low. After Katrina we where short Generators, and other supplies that home depot and walmart diverted. Anyway I am a glass is half full type of guy always hope for the best. But make sure you have a mental attitude to be able to make a life or death decision if the time comes. If you feel you can not then find someone to help you make it as a team.
Major mistake Do not like Killing!!!!.. Sorry
You almost had me there. I thought you might be another one of those N Idaho people.
DeeDee: I would like to help my neighbors too BUT how do you know who has been shaking their hand? Coughing on them? Which infected cop wiped his nose before handing them back their ID card at a check point? I think maybe leaving some food by the door might be in order. Of course you wouldn’t win the etiquette (sp?) award but you protect yourself AND provide for those you care about. My father-in-law has a big cabin in the woods 1/2 mile up from a creek you have to cross to get there. He is considering a quarantine tent down by the creek. Late comers would have to stay in the tent for a certain amount of time before being invited into the big house. This may be something that could be incorporated in a subdivision. Thoughts?
On the fence:
Great idea about a quarantine tent. Helping people is alot easier when you don’t think they might kill you. How would you manage the quarantine tent. Do you have instructions there telling them to stay in the tent for 72 hours, or do you have someone monitoring?
This place is VERY hidden and isolated. It’s just a hunting cabin up next to a HUGE state park. Only family knows where it is. It could be easily managed by having a CB/mobil radio at the stocked tent. It is understood that no one goes up past the tent. Honestly, we are too far away and it isn’t in my plan. It is something I recommended to him and he may implement. It makes perfect sense to me so I passed it on. I hear a lot of people on here talking about how their hubbies will have to go to work and they will be left alone. What if the SHTF and the hubbies get to come home because they are just not needed? Now they could be a danger to their families. IF it were me, I would call my wife and tell her to put the tent in the back yard and I will come in after it’s safe. I guess that would make me the ‘yard guard’ but at least I wouldn’t endangering my family and all of my prepping. PS: I haven’t done any real prepping other than consolidating all of my camping stuff/ol’ military junk into one place and start bulk buying for my pantry. It’s all a matter of $$$$.
In my humble opinion and at my distance, I feel the entirety of this thread has been completely relevant, legitimate and useful (with one or two reservations about my own posts!).
However, I want to remind myself that it is very largely all based on a (proper!) examination of the worst possible case scenario. I intellectually doubt that the likelihood of the worst case exceeds the likelihood of the least impact case.
This beast is unprecedented in historical times, seems the experts are saying. We could have two or more strains, and they can mutate over a year or two to pose new vaccine and antiviral challenges. And the whole thing could go on for longer than any of us have been able to prep for…
That is not to criticise our examination of the very severe possibilities, just a note of balance for me before I throw up my hands in despair. This is potentially a monumental challenge for our society and world civilisation?
PS: IF you are really worried about public unrest: put your bug out stuff in your van/suv and back it into the garage. If it gets too tense at the house…leave…FAST.
Nikolai,
It is good to see you comming along old chap. I know that your thinking is changing and it is good to see a less exhuberant voice because we really must pull the most from the smart people we have out there. I think that it can go on very long - even so long that our society is completely reset. Its not like it hasn’t happened many many times in history. Are we so immune because of our technology? Our technology may even hasten the outcome.
I think people basically like things to stay the same. It may get crazy, or maybe not. Regardless, when the dust settles enough people will want their Walmarts, McDonald’s and Cable TV. I am willing to bet that life styles in 1916 weren’t too much different than 1920.
Nikolai---Sydney – at 00:01 “it is very largely all based on a (proper!) examination of the worst possible case scenario. “
You are right. I like to try to prepare for the worst possible case, but I really don’t expect it to be as bad as many seem to think. I really don’t expect roaming bands of the half dead and major panic. Instead it will be that people will get sick, some will die and many will recover. In the 6 months or so, about 1/3 of the people will get sick for two or so weeks. That means that on the average about 2% to 5% will be sick at any given time (with a peak of around 8 to 10 % or so). Look around the office and think what would happen if 5 % of the people called in sick. It would mess things up, but it would not be the end of the world. There will be shortages, rotating blackouts, long lines at the pumps when fuel trucks happen to get there. But by and large, I don’t expect the panic and riots. Oh I will be ready for them but I don’t expect them.
Just do the math and see what you come up with even with a 33% infection rate over 5 to 6 months. It is good to prepare for the worst but not at the expense of being prepared for the most probable.
Normally I really don’t worry about these types of things because of my setup. However it really is not just Pan Flu.
1. Possible Larger war in the Middle East 2. Unrest in SEA 3. Resurgence of mumps, plague ect.. 4. Pan Flu 5. Severe change in weather Hurricanes, Typhoons, earthquakes and Tsunami’s
There is so much going on at the same time, one has to wonder. I would like to think all of this is normal and life to return back to the way it is now. Maybe history is about to repeat all over again. Even I can not prepare for everything.
Good Luck to us all. Back to the shadows for me.
For a fascinating insight into the pandemic “apocalypse scenario” through a social/political lens look here: http://tinyurl.com/j238z, from crofsblog’s H5N1 site. An interesting look at our national psyche and the relationships between classes. Thought provoking!
NIdaho – at 16:01 asked
>Is it possible that myself and my engineers could be ordered to keep things running. Even though we would prefer to be at home.<
The electrical engineers on the Titanic stayed at their posts keeping the power on to run the lights and the wireless, until the last minute.
As a result, not one of them survived…
We will need trained people after a pandemic, so, it now very unknown when pandemic will occur, how contagious, how virulent, it will be, and how to make personal decisions until it comes and we see what it is doing.
Current unpreparedness is not reassurring. Staying at one’s post when it will help, or knowing when to say “this isn’t going to work”, will have to be up to individuals. Ordering people to stay at a power plant, if there is no security, and no food, and no fuel source for the plant -well, I’d rather better preparation got done now.
The police, military, local community groups, power suppliers, water suppliers, (public!) need to be brainstorming together -not all saying, I’ll do my bi,t but without x, it is going to all fall apart the first week.
Let’s try and make it a question that won’t go away for politicians; how will they prepare and cope and recover from an influenza pandemic. It may happen on their watch.
For the ‘tanks are in the wire’ people, of which I am probably one, I found a ‘driveway sensor’ at Harbor Freight for $15 which seems to have an infrared sensor and has a ‘pleasant chime’ when someone breaks the beam. Wireless and the monitor is in the house. Probably a good idea anyway, occasionally have people drop by unannounced in the evening and this would give me time to get dressed/prepared. I have asked people to call first, but you know how that goes. Mount it high enough so the squirrels and dogs don;t set it off.
3L120 – at 12:38
I have one of those kind of things but it was a pain. The problem is all the elk, deer, bear,…. They always end up coming and going in the middle of the night. I ended up taking the IR sensor out and using an inductive sensor from a metal detector circuit. (used the transmitter part for the signal to the house and the inductor coil for my detector.) That gets cars and not animals. But that is what I get for living by a pond in the forest. So if THEY come in tanks I will be ok, if they come by foot (long walk) I may miss them.
Hopefully, no bear or elk by me. Deer, yes, but not many. Dogs, yes, although they could be a possible protein source. The ‘tanks in the wire’ was reference to the Lang Vei SF camp which was over-run in the Nam where they suddenly found a dozen NVA tanks coming over the perimeter wire, which was a concern, especially as they had been told there were no tanks within 100 miles. Book by the same name shows, though, that even the most thorough defense can be over-run if you are not prepared.
3L120 – at 13:07
Yes, I keep hearing the fear here that someone would show up at their door with a gun. I don’t worry much about that - I am not about to go rob anyone (I will dig roots in the winter first) but IF I did, I would just drive my 4 wheel truck with a snow plow right through their wall.
Is there a site for adding Differnt type of prep links. Survival, food ect.. I dont need it but might be willing to add some to it. I have been collecting links for over 10 years now.
Just my two pennies, but I think stores, hospitals, pharmacies, etc. will be first on the list of looters, not peoples homes. They will be wasting their time in about 75% of those homes anyway because that’s about the percentage of homes that have not prepped at all (based on a poll I saw about a month ago), and probably another 20% may be prepped for a short while but by the time the looters get to the point of going home to home, I’m guessing that 95% of all homes will be nearly bare with people starving inside them. So what I’m saying is, by the time they get to the 5 out of the 100 homes they go to, they will be weak from starvation themselves. You will be strong and nourished, level headed for the most part. They will be weak, tired, and insane. You have a great advantage there. They will be fighting among themselves for the little they do find. By the time they can mass large numbers of weapons and organize, there will be an opposite force of strength against them (made up largely of FW preppers!). And, BTW, it is the looters and the violence that will keep a lot of people from going out in public, not the flu - they would rather starve to death than get beat to death. I also think there will be cannibals among us. That’s what really scares me.
Each wave has different motives, varying skills and varying levels of organization and commitment.
A plan/design to mute each in the same manner is likely to be found permeable.
There is a power of social animals to band together, even in a pandemic, and form a community with laws and protection of itself.
I am remembering the story of rock soup. The starving man came into the town begging for food. At every door he was turned away, because the town was poor and there was not much food to give away. Many of the doors he knocked had people nearly starving behind them. They told him they had only a small amount of this or that, not nearly enough for a meal even for themselves. He resolved to sit down in the middle of town with a pan of water. He placed some rocks in the water and heated it above the fire he had made. Some passer-bys stopped and asked him what he was cooking. He told them rock soup. The passer-bys were also hungry, but had some onions they had just picked from their garden. They gave the begger an onion to flavor the soup. Another woman nearby saw this and brought out a carrot to add to the soup. Soon, others brought veggies and pieces of meat to add. It was not long before the begger had a big pot of thick soup cooking and he shared it with all of them and no one went hungry that night…or ever again because they had learned from the beggar how to make rock soup.
I believe we will have rock soup communities all over the place and that we can keep the violence at bay.
It’s really the cannibal soup that I’m worried about.
Stone soup communities will take an extended term to develop during the pandaemonium due to inherent mistrust and scarcity of resources.
Meeting your neighbours now, teaching them how to prepare, if only in a small way, will go far toward a richer stock for your stone soup during PF51.
I agree, but my neighbors are very similar to the rest of America. Some are prepping, most are not. Or at least they are not talking about it. I’ll start the rock soup. I do like the ones I know. But I’m not going to bet the farm and start cooking it right away. My family will come first and I’ll have to see how it’s going “out there” before I do. I may be a tad bit idealistic, but I’m not stupid. Like you said, it will take a while. In the meantime, I think those first 5 waves will be stores, restaurants, etc. MOSTLY, before they start targeting homes.
we’ve bought 40, 000 tins of beans but have heard that beans can be contaminated with bird flu, is this true? its called HP-71.
If anyone is considering me for lunch, I am old and stringy and probably have several communicable diseases. %}
Hello to all, NIdaho, I have been prepping for 14 months, and lurking for 13 of those months. In that time I have picked up alot of insight from the blogs and news. After going though the mental process of maybe having to hunker down to save myself and my family, it occurred to me, do I want to survive and then have to live with the knowledge that I had the ability and could have done more to help others and didn’t because I was afraid. No! I’ll take reasonable precautions to prevent getting sick, robbed, etc. I do thank you for your post and hope you can keep the “power” going where you live(and hope that the power plant will not sink). I’m not so sure about power and running water being available where I live when/if this mess starts bubbling and rolling.
Here’s an article by the author of “How to Beat the Bird Flu”. I’m printing a portion of the article here, as it logically confirms what the results of self-quarantining will do.
http://www.newstarget.com/019363.html/Bird flu poll reveals U.S. economic collapse likely
Posted Thursday, April 27, 2006 by Mike Adams
“The Harvard School of Public Health conducted a telephone survey of 1,043 adults….results of this poll show that 60 percent of the citizens in the United States are concerned about bird flu, indicating that there is very high awareness. Almost everyone has heard of the bird flu, and nearly two-thirds of the population is concerned about it.
However, at the same time, almost no one has done anything to prepare for bird flu. Only 2 percent of people polled said they had actually talked to a doctor about Tamiflu or other antiviral medications. This lack of preparedness across the board is what I’ve been warning you about, folks. For those of you who have been paying attention to the coming bird flu pandemic, it is time to prepare now, before this becomes a human disease, and before the other 98 percent of the country wakes up and suddenly realizes that they’d better do something about it.
You can rest assured that, when this 98 percent wakes up and tries to take action, whatever it is that they’re attempting to buy will not be available. Antiviral herbs, medications and preparedness products will all be wiped out if that large a percentage of the population decides to do something at the same time.
Sixty-eight percent of poll respondents — that is, over two-thirds — said they would stay home and keep their children at home while the outbreak lasted. This is huge. If this many people actually do this, the U.S. economy will all but collapse.
Think about this very carefully: If two-thirds of the people stay home, don’t go to work, don’t go out and spend money, don’t go and produce something, this country will experience severe economic consequences. Not just a recession, not just a depression — but a sharp, and hopefully only temporary, collapse of basic economic activities.
That’s what we’re looking at, and let me translate this into real terms for you. This means two-thirds of the people who run the oil refineries won’t go to work. Two-thirds of the people who run the power plants and the water plants, who drive trucks and deliver all the goods and food across this country, won’t go to work. Two-thirds of the schoolteachers; two-thirds of government workers; two-thirds of your local police officers, firemen and ambulance workers; two-thirds of the hospital workers — the doctors, the nurses, the anesthesiologists; two-thirds of bridge maintenance workers and street repairman — none of these people will go to work.
You get the idea here. What happens if two-thirds of the workers in all these basic infrastructure services are suddenly missing because they’re staying home, attempting to save their families from the bird flu outbreak?
You saw what happened with Hurricane Katrina. Caught in the chaos without any real help from FEMA, many New Orleans police officers said, “This isn’t worth a paycheck!” They turned in their badges and left town. If I remember correctly, over a hundred police officers quit. What do you think is going to happen when a low-level police officer, has to choose between staying on the job and facing potentially armed rioters vs. staying at home and protecting his family? What do you think he is going to choose? He’s going to quit his job and stay home to protect his family, and this is going to happen across the board. It’s a no-brainer.
Where does this leave you as the end user of these services? It means that you’d better be prepared for a situation in which you may not get these basic services for an extended period of time. You might not get these services for a week, a month, six months or perhaps even a year, because that’s how long this epidemic could last.
How will you live without water service for six months? How will you live without electricity, heat or gasoline? Without a bountiful supply of food delivered to your local grocery store every single day? How will life be without all the stuff you buy at Wal-Mart, Kmart and other convenience stores? How will you wash your clothes? How will you keep yourself bathed? How will you keep yourself and your family fed? How will you protect your household and your community?
This virus is very aggressive. This pandemic is spreading from country to country in a way that we have never before witnessed in the history of modern civilization. Nothing like this has ever been recorded — not even in 1918, when a similar virus ultimately killed 50 million people worldwide. The virus we are seeing in the birds today is far more virulent and far more dangerous, and if it does jump to humans, you’d better be prepared, because this poll is shouting right in your face, telling you exactly what’s going to happen: Two-thirds of the population will stay home and basic infrastructure will collapse. Do the math on this one. It isn’t rocket science.”
http://tinyurl.com/mlt46 - sorry I failed the pmwiki markup.
NJ.Preppie.
Excellent from analytical and predictive viewpoints…as usual.
Civilizations have failed because they received a severe external shock when their “reason-to-be” was at a low ebb. A “unity of purpose” coupled with a strong overriding Will would be necessary for a highly complex civilization such as ours to survive a high CFR Panflu that persisted over several years.
The Western Industrialized World and its Asian counterpart are largely held together by commerce and consumerism and varying levels of nationalism. Our sense of purpose has scattered into a thousand different directions. Religions have been made subservient to our individual desires. (Perhaps we underestimate the role religion played in allowing Europe to exit the Black Death with some of its societal structure intact?).
Why do we fear Al Queda and its minions? Because they have a monomanical sense of purpose, perverted yes, but unrelenting and unforgiving. A similar intensity of mindset (and of a different order) would hold our civilization together.
So we would have to give up what we currently consider to be our strengths in order to truly meet this threat of a prolonged, highly deadly Panflu.
We are highly vulnerable, and there is no way that most of us can change fast enough to meet Panflu’s threat. Only by undergoing this hardship together can we become what we need to be.
NJ. Preppie’s article excerpt underscores one point which seems to have been missed by all of the pundits, FEMA and Executive Branch folks who keep saying that “You can expect no help from the Feds”.
In the name of National Security this country has been pouring trillions of dollars into various enterprises to root out evil-doers both at home and abroad. This is to insure that our country is safe and secure.
At the same time, there are those who believe that the federal Government should be shrunken until it can be placed into a bucket and drowned.
I submit that the above article indicates that TPTB are missing the basic point. The potential disruption, economic consequences and fatalities among the citizens of this country make the possibility of a pandemic one of the top priorities that needs to be dealt with immediately and forcefully.
Having the Secretary of Homeland Security spending his time touring the country just to ell us “You’re on your own” is insufficient to the potential magnitude of what we face.
I guess either they just don’t get it. Or I don’t.
DeeDee - Asheville - The electrical grid is not not what I specialise in. however my skills and experience transfer into electrical, mechanical and electronics. I have spoken with people in the past about my willingness to help in emergancy situations. I am sad to say that they do not want the help, I and others have to offer. Sometimes pride can get in the way. Most goverment engineers do not want someone like myself helping out in any situation. My industry yes may ask or order me to help. I have an extensive group of experts in many areas, but we are are not given respect or allowed to offer our knowledge. We make alot more money that these government folk and there may be some resentment. They also do not want to hire us since they feel we are over qualified. That is why I have to travel since my home is in the far N. of Idaho. So I am afraid unless someone calls me on the CB I would not even know my help would be needed. My family and the people who live close me will keep some power going. Spare parts will cause this to become difficult as time rolls on. We are very creative and practice every winter when the power fails. Last winter we did not even need power, since our preps where so good. It was a nice feeling.
I see 3 basic activities the federal government could be involved in, that they need to prepare for now if the pandemic happens:
1. Lock up the bad guys, maintain order, enforce quarantine etc.
2. Stockpile food etc.
3. Plan for and have alternate distribution capabilities for distribution of food etc,
All of these have to be thought through in light of unique realities during a pandmic. Item number 1 must happen no mater what. This requires separate locations for people with symptoms and those without. In any case, you do not want to be a bad guy. You will probably end up with symptoms eventually.
Items 2 and 3 are not realistic as a long term solution to a long pandemic. The stock piles would have to be astronomically massive (impractical). Also if trucks made round through neighborhoods or distribution centers were set up, there are at least two problems:
1. There still would not be enough. 2. There would be no way to verify that those receiving aid were the ones that needed it the most. For example, if the supply truck stops in your neighborhood, will not everyone line up to get food? You don’t know if the truck is ever coming back.
Last of all, police or military personnel taking from the have families to give to the have not families is labor intensive and dangerous and there would not be enough food recovered from such activities to make it worth the trouble (almost no one is preping).
The only thing I can think of is for the Feds to plan for tent cities in farming areas (For example central California for my state). In partnership with state authorities U.S. military could command, protect, and direct the activities of the tent city inhabitants in following activities:
1. Transportation to and from farms where food will be harvested (commandeered) and security while harvesting. 2. Transportation to and from locations to commandeer all other needed supplies such as water, supplies to add onto and maintain tents cities, fuel etc. 3. Oversight of healthcare at tent cities (twin cities, 1 for symptom free, one for symptoms, well spaced “tents”). 4. Oversight of maintenance, expansion, and policing of the tents cities.
This would provide for the needs of citizens in real need as well as support the needs of the military. I’m sure this plan is woefully incomplete and full of holes but it is better than “The federal government will not do anything, you are on your own”. This plan would not work forever, but perhaps long enough for the strain to mutate into as less deadly form. I do not think I would have thought of this if people from New Orleans were not relocating to other states. Some came (or were voluntarily relocated) all the way out here in California.
Any comments?
Eccles – at 10:32 wrote:
>Having the Secretary of Homeland Security spending his time touring the country just to ell us “You’re on your own” is insufficient to the potential magnitude of what we face.<
Actually, I think having Mr Leavitt running about the country screaming “The Sky Is Falling, You’re on Your Own!” is a VERY good indication of how seriously the government takes this.
There is a difference between wanting to do something about a problem, and being able to.
Centella - One of the biggest problems that I see in the current Homeland Security mindset is that it is based completely around an us versus the bad guys mindset. Thus, things like NOLA happen because we are so busy protecting our people and infrastructure from bad guys, we ignore the largest hurricane in recorded history homing in on those parts. it was just weather, not evil bad guys against whom we must defend ourselves.
Similarly, pandemic flu is just illness. Now then, if bad guys were going to distribute it amongst the population using some kind of Buck Rogers device, then we would have billions of dollars spent in classified programs to figure out how to combat it. As long as some of that combat involved locating and stopping bad guys.
So, while we wait for the bad guys to show up, we could experience massive disease and economic collapse. but at least while this was going on, we were fully protected from bad guys.
Eccles – at 11:31
Well, the feds need a paradigm shift and should consider this as the biggest storm ever and be prepared to do more than react if it hits. If a workable plan is not in place people will loose all faith in authority. Most people need to have direction (governance)and the Government needs to step up to the plate and direct the activities of the “good” citizens towards a contructive end.
without giving any evidence that the sky is falling or why it
should be falling, this is just normal end-of-the-world prophecy.
If the government really thought The Sky Were Falling,
then you US-citizens had a right
to get that message from your president himself.
Centella - Think about the implications of what you just said. if “the people lose all faith in authority”, the government no longer has a mandate from the governed. Since the government is not designed to recognize this other than within the electoral process, you could well see the very public unrest that this thread is about. Maintaining civil order in this case is about prior planning and protection of people. not responding later with riot gear and SWAT teams.
Trust me Eccles, we did not ignore it. Those of us in South Florida with a tinge of guilt and a sigh of relief watched it go some where else. If preparations had started the day Katrina was born, there was nothing that could have been done to the levies that would have made any difference.
Evacuations are a different matter. A better effort could have been made to move people. Still with the most dire of warnings, some people will not evacuate. I have members of my own family that absolutely refuse to leave their homes. We simply load up our chain saws and generators and go dig them out after the storms.
Eccles – at 10:32 wrote:
>Having the Secretary of Homeland Security spending his time touring the country just to ell us “You’re on your own” is insufficient to the potential magnitude of what we face.<
Thats not realy what I heard at the Michigan summit.
HOMELAND SECURITY has identified 17 sectors & key assets: Under 6 categories
(1) PRODUCTION INDUSTRIES – Energy, Chemical, Defense,
(2) SERVICE INDUSTRIES – Banking & Finance, Transportation & Border Security, Postal & Shipping,
(3) SUSTENANCE & HEALTH – Agriculture, Food, Water, Public Health,
(4) FEDERAL & STATE – Government, Emergency Services,
(5) IT & CYBER – Information Technology & Telecommunications, Internet Alert Dashboard,
(6) OTHER – Commercial Facilities & Real estate, DHS daily report contact information, General
HOMELAND SECURITY PRIMARY ROLES:
(1) Secure borders and transportation systems;
(2) Sustain the key assets & infrastructure (see the list above) The top 5 things Homeland Seurity gave as their priority was (1) Water (2) Food (3)Energy (4) Banking & Finance (5) Chemical Industry - plus border security was right up there too. He did not explain the items on the list, he just listed them.
(3) Insure continuity of business,
(4) Insure continuity of Government,
(5) Overarching coordination role between Federal, State, and Local
And as FW wrote “There is a difference between wanting to do something about a problem, and being able to.”
I guess I do not understand what people expect from the Feds, just being a huge entity, being the federal government, does not make them “all powerful” and able to solve all our woes. I for one would much rather take the honest truth about who can help in what ways than hear some official telling me that “they have it covered”. Regardless of any track record, good or poor, every business/organization has limitations and I am of the opionion that the larger the entity the greater the limitations on what they can do at the local level. And if all the federal government can do are the things listed above, and they can in fact do them, I’ll settle for that rather than someone blowing smoke up my butt any day.
Eccles – at 11:46
I think I understand what you are saying and I think I we agree. Before, during and after the government needs to protect its citizens. I am just pealing back the layers of the onion and think that if the governmnet partners withn its citizens to take care of the root needs then perhaps much of the unrest will not materialize in the first place.
To All Hello and great respect. I have been a supporter to a person who posts on this site as her husband and needed to respond to current concerns.I have been reluctantly prepreping for this impending apocoliyps. For over 40 years I have lived with the impression that Armegedon (religious) is just around the corner (this is not a pleasant life to be subjected to). Let me tell you, the only support and solice is yourself and the special loved ones close to you. You need to remember that any governmental agency or social agency is only lipsink. We must do the best we can for ourselves and others. No One Else Will Do It For Us! So many think that the movie United 93 movie is too early, but they do not understand that this is a tribute to the heroic behaviors to those individuals on that day to help preserve our beliefs. How to respond to a pandemic of this nature will leave a permantent mark for future generations to remember us by. I have studied cultural anthropolgy and each culture has been documented in history for their responses and reactions to difficult situations. We must be very careful that we do not leave a leagacy for future generations to percive us as non-caring and self centered people. This is why we must not depend on elected and governmental people to determine our course.
Thanks To All, Tim
Mods - now I am in no way a computer guru but the above post at 15:15 sure looks like spam to me!
What the ?????
WIT,
Thanks for bringing that to our attention.
What was that?
I just read in todays paper that our county has gang members. Of course here in Jersey we have BLoods, Ms13, The Crips and the Latin Kings. I had a feeling we might. I don’t know gang colors or signs, perhaps I will research this now. The article mentione 2/3 rds are under 17, and feel it is glorious to die for what they believe in. What that is, except for the honor of their gang, I don’t know. It is sobering.
If you discuss with your family about a gun be ready to give the plus and minus points about it; also you need basic info as to what type?
+ points - points
With a gun you can sleep nights OK If everyone understands its purpose Well ok if everyone understand If its used correctly by everyone OK If rule of engagement are agreed upon Ok how and when it can be used Never use it as a threat Why? If you are not prepared to use it don’t OK mention or show it! Don’t play games THIS IS FOR REAL! OK BUT WHAT TYPE? - - - - -
Now important info: In a house your walls are NOT bullet proof. So a shotgun with OO buckshot which cannot pass through the walls is best inside. They will kill from 1–50 meters distance away.
Outside a rifle is best.
Range - Very important(more then 50 meters). Number of rounds - carried before reload. More then 5 is very necessary! Ammo - Can you get it locally? Cost - look for retired military rifles they are made to due the job, ammo is readly available, and the cost is very small compared to the new ones. $200 compared to $15,000
MkI mod IV Enfield shots (.303) British, bolt action, sells for less then $200.00. SKS China/USSR(7.62×39mm), bolt action, also sells for less then $200.00.
Buy more than one so you have spare(s).
No hand gun - a shotgun has the range and a wider pattern unless you know how to use one and have the extra money, time, location to learn.
SEND RICHARD FL GYSGT USMC RETIRED
Richard,
I can only reinforce what you just said. I know experienced marksman who have frozen in the face of an intruder. Having firearms is a very serious responsibility and unless everyone in your household is prepared to use them safely and and with deadly force, you are a greater danger to yourself than if you are unarmed.
Melanie, you have just described a subset of the population who will never make it (or try to make it) in this brave new world of panflu. Time for the weak-kneed, reality-defying minions to step up to the plate or cede their place on the planet.
MM,
Not everyone agrees with you. In addition to chaos and unrest, in the wake of Katrina, Rita and Wilma there was unprecendented cooperation in neighborhoods. Yes, the worst will happen, but so will the best. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.
only one short comment from me
PLEASE Do NOT plan on pepper spray as being an effective deterent against a bad guy who may be armed (as suggested above). Also, I need to add emphasis as mentioned above: To be able to effectively use a gun in self defense requires professional training and IMHO tactical practice, not just “range” time.
MAV- you are correct. The fine print on mace and pepper spray is somewhat sobering- “be prepared to use additional force to subdue intoxicated or persons otherwise insensitive to pain”.
Good advice; just obey the manufacturer’s instructions, right?
Having a range of response options is a plus. Having two cans of pepper spray instead of just one does not constitute a choice of options.
While I generally agree with Gunny Richards earlier recommendations, all firearms require training and familiarization. Handguns have one huge advantage over every other type- they are convenient to carry on your person, and for that reason are likely to be at hand when you are attacked. A .22 pistol you have in your pocker beats the hell out of a .308 battle rifle in your safe. To echo Col. Cooper, if I know there’s going to be a gunfight, I’m getting a rifle!
As regards taking life in defence of self, friends and family, no reasonable person takes joy in the thought or the deed. However, no reasonable person should shrink from the act if there is justification. A thug who forces his way into your home, threatening your life and the lives of your family, has stated by his actions that he has forsaken civilized behaviour and is living by the law of the jungle. Such an initiation of force frees the attacked person(s) to respond with lethal force.
an old Japanese Zen saying goes something like this “ A burglar enters during the night, and is found shot dead in the morning. Q- Whose hand was on the bow? A- The burglar’s.”
RICHARD FL – at 20:51: Some sporting goods and military surplus stores sell Mosin Nagants (soviet made, bolt action, 7.62X54r rifles) for under $100. One version, the M44, even comes with a folding side bayonet permanently attached.
(woo, woo!)
FW,
The Nagants have a nasty history of jamming, and I don’t mean that in a jazz way.
Melanie-
Agreed. If you’re looking for a surplus bolt gun, I’d look at the Czech 8mm mausers currently being imported, or the Yugo M48 (restamped Kar ‘98s) in 8mm. There is currently a lot of surplus 8mm around, while 7.62 x 54R is harder to find. Moreover, you can reload 8 x 57 by sizing down .30–06 or .270 brass; the case heads are the same.
don’t like the sights, though, I really prefer a peep sight like the 1917 Enfield or the 1903A3 Springfield. Garands have the BEST sights….but they are $500-$750 for a good Korean War production rifle…
the first time I ever saw an SKS I laughed. But given the choice between an SKS and an AK I’d take the SKS, awkward, heavy, warts and all, because every one I have ever shot will go into 3″ at 100 yards with due deliberation; most will do 2″ or less, and I have shot a yugo with a scope mount that does an inch and a half. Compare this to the AKs I have shot, most of which you have trouble hitting a pie plate with at 100 yards…… The sights on both are about equally bad; but both the AK and SKS are very reliable- I once ran 1000 rounds through an AK in an afternoon (had buddies loading mags) and never had a malf, although I did start to see cookoffs at about the 250 round mark, and slowed the rate of fire. <grin> I have been told that SKS rifle are comparable.
As have said before…if you are serious about using a firearm, you had better be REALLY serious. Waving a rifle around like a magic wand works in Hollyweird, but not on the real world. While a proper mind set is important, so is practice. Only a non-firearm person thinks they can shoot someone in an extremity at 50 feet in the blink of an eye. However, practice will allow you to double tap the center of mass at the 25 yard line most of the time.
‘But I can’t afford to practice!’ Goes along with the mantra, ‘I can’t afford to prep’. Anyone who can’t afford a sack of beans or rice every other week is spending too much on something, be it cell phone, eating out or movies/DVDs for the kids. As for firearms, you sends off to BATF (ATF.TREAS.GOV) for an application for a Curio and Relic FFL. You fill out the application, get finbgerprinted by your local PD or SO, send off the print cards, the app and a check for $30 to ATF. 4–6 weeks later you get your license. You send a signed COPY of the license to all the firearm distributors and they will then sell you firearms at dealer cost. For example…Century Arms has a special this month on Yugoslavian 8mm rifles for 2/$210 (regular $119 each) in very good condition. 8mm surplus ammo is also on sale for $49/900 rounds. Now that is a LOT of practice ammo. Or they also sell the Moisin-Nagant rifles mentioned above, the M44 (w/bayonet) for 5/$225 and ammo is $29/440 rounds. The only requirement is that you have a logbook in which you log in all your C&R purchases. You may not want 5 of the M44s, if so, they go normally for $49 each. Try and get that price at your Big 5.
Thw point is not to arm someone who is afraid of firearms or could not bear to shoot someone, but to provide a reasonable price for someone who does think there is a need but does not have the money to finance a high priced firearm or to buy ammo to practice with.
MAV in Colorado – at 17:07 “PLEASE Do NOT plan on pepper spray as being an effective deterent….”
For the person that is not able, for whatever reason, to purchase a firearm, pepper spray is an enormously viable option. The blanket statement that you articulated above is misleading to those who may looking for alternative means of protecting their loved ones. I have used pepper spray (and CS gas) on numerous occasions achieving the desired results. Yes, there are those that it may not work on: drunks, meth and crack-heads, angel dust, heroin addicts and so on.
Nothing works 100% of the time, but I assure you pepper spray in the eyes and nasal passages is extremely effective and it will give you what you need - time.
If the bad guy has a gun and you don’t? He wins.
Melanie – at 18:52 wrote:
>The Nagants have a nasty history of jamming, and I don’t mean that in a jazz way.<
None of mine have ever jammed. Except when I was using some Wolf ammo, where the shell didn’t want eject after firing. But they’re Russian guns; I just had to MUSCLE the bolt open, and the shell came out.
You can’t damage a Mosin. Unless you run a tank over it.
Suprisingly accurate, too.
But they’ll bruise your shoulder black and blue without a pad…
I went down to make some hot choc…the Canadian air is freezin us. I died laughing as I walked by some preps…I think I have more TP than food. As far as guns…I’m afraid a bit but I’m thinking about it.
Bull Run:
You’re one of the most realistic and sensible wiki poster out there.
I noticed your position is to defend your preps and family as though you were holding the Alamo or gearing up for Custers last stand.
After making the futile, stupid, grave mistake of trying to get others to prep, I realized the need for, and purchased a shot gun, ammo, mace, and stun guns.
Now what? When TSHTF am I to sleep with one eye open until the pandemic has gone though all 2 or 3 phases over the course of 12 - 18 maybe as many as 36 months?
I’ve given this considerable thought, and have concluded a more effective strategy might be to rent 3 or 4 small (5 X 5) rental spaces that have 24 hour access (no fence) that I could retrieve say a weeks worth of supplies from in a clandestine manner (no head or brake lights) at 3:30 AM. This, IMHO, would be safer than having all my eggs in one basket under my bed and in my pantry.
I’m not in disagreement that preps are subject to looting, probably by force, but would like your opinion on the aforementioned stategy. Tks.
mmmelody47 – at 20:58 agreed, its better than nothing or even a wood stick, but I’m thinkin’ the number of arms on the street, both in the hands of the bad guys and the desperate and unprepared will be unprecedented. That was my intention for the heads up. I really couldn’t recommend counting on OC/CS for this type of situation. If TSHTF, public unrest, in these conditions will not favor the unarmed. Therefore my recommendation.
Pepper spray; You don’t take a knife to a gun fight! Rifle; You don’t need a rifle to shoot a person on your porch or in your kitchen! You need intent to harm to kill a person. I would suggest you would have trouble proving intent with a shot of 50 yard or more. Advice from my dad; Never point a gun at anything (excludes target practice) unless you intend to kill it! Very doubtful that a bullet will go through a person, go through a studded wall, go through the exterior wall, miss all obstructions in your yard, penetrate the exterior wall next door, go through another studded wall, miss all obstructions in the room, and kill someone, unless Oswald fired it and he is dead. = Shotgun, oo buckshot, 44 magnum.
Whispering Wind – at 05:29 - Good points! Your dad was right. For home defense a shotgun in the smaller gauges with an uncomplicated action for those not familiar with firearms is the most practical and is very effective. Heck, having a bunch of M-80 firecrackers could work too! Hillbilly Bill noted on another excellent thread that we should all be testing and experimenting with any new equipment that we have purchased in preparation for a pandemic. Aside from water and food….home defense procedural matters should be near the top of the list of important things to do…..IMHO.
Practice, practice, practice!
If things really get bad, I would not count on storage lockers being untouched by the masses. In reality after the stores are cleaned out, the next step would be any place where food/supplies/valuables ‘might’ be kept.
Interestingly enough, I have been to several storage sales when the renter has not made his payments and most are full of junk. One had a 20+ year old Pinto in it. I imagine the rent over the years was more than the car will ever be worth.
mmmelody47 – at 07:50
“Heck, having a bunch of M-80 firecrackers could work too! “
An M-80 inside a tennis ball filled with BB’s will work wonders for running off all but the really desperate.
But if the “ really desperate “ are armed and your home made frag does not scare them you had better be ready to use deadly force. You may loose precious seconds attempting to wound? an attacker. How about if you get a dud? Why not just throw a rock? Kelly
Wyatt Earp once said, most people never have a need for a gun, but when they do, they need one real bad.. I believe Cooper, said something like, to be a good shot with a pistol you need to fire at least 1,500 rounds. In my 60 years, I have worked as a gunsmith, a game warden, and a fire arms instructor for the Government. I have shot, thousands upon thousands of rounds, but I found, when I had not shot, for two or three years because of where I was living, my proficiency had fallen off greatly.
I have known a few men personally who survived a gun fights. In all cases, when it was over, and they had time to reflect, they all said they did what they had trained to do. Anyone who plans to carry a handgun had better Practice, Practice, Practice, and secondly DON’T pick one up, Unless you are WILLING to use it. Finally, in my experiences the average person would be far better off with a 20-gauge single barrel shotgun, then a pistol or a rifle.
Had a dead mouse in my toilet, it is now in the garbage decomposing nicely. Perhaps I should triple bag it, then stick it in its own little plastic coffin and put it in the freezer, to be taken out, foul and reeking to be on the front steps with the beware of dog, loot and we shoot, and a live dog barking its head off with an electronic chorus howling like banshees if someone intrudes that I’m aware of. I noticed a house on the main road with yellow plastic tape across the drive. Perhaps those of you with police in the family could buy some crime scene tape and use it on your front steps. I have my defenses and am no longer concerned. In some ways its just one “game of Life” to us all.A very important one at that.
old duck hunter – at 12:24 - there are many similarities to our respective backgrounds. Everything that you posted above is perfectly and correctly stated. Thanks!
Lily - at 12:29 - you continue to amaze me! ;-)
So far, this is one of the best threads yet, thanks for all the great ideas and the admonishments to practice!
Only have a couple hand guns, but bought hollowpoints for them(the salesman said, don’t use these for practice - save them for ‘the one you love’). LOL. Any way, time to head to the local shooting range and remember how to shoot with normal rounds. Honestly, a couple boxes of shells are not that pricey, just like 3L120 said, skip a couple movie rentals.
I’m not a gun nut, but home defense of loved ones is part of my overall prep plan, in addition to 3 months food and first aid.
Np1 – at 12:07
If I have good cover where I cannot easily be hit or gotten to (and I do/will under those circumstances), I will attempt to warn/scare folks off before resorting to more deadly force. I can live with those circumstances and be well within the law of “reasonable force” & all that. But again that all depends upon who the attackers are. If it’s ma & pa kettle starving and looking for a meal that’s one situation, if its a bunch of modern day Vikings looting & pillaging, well then that’s a whole different story and gets its own special response.
Melody47. A certain part of what I post is tongue in cheek, because I can find something amusing in the damndest and most serious of subjects. But all this is serious, and while the thought of my freezer becoming the Tomb of the Decomposing Rodents isn’t too likely, I thought that the reek of death is off putting. Perhaps someone could bottle and sell it as a Flu Prep. I have an escalating amount of defenses and I don’t scare easily. In fact I am usually calmer in an emergency than most. And I also act approprite to the danger.
I think this is the hardest for people to prepare for. Acting appropriatly to the degree of danger involved. If you know you can act instinctively and appropiate to the situation you will be much more comfortable. In an emergency situation you all know how members of your family behave. Some freeze up, some get hysterical, some are totally reliable. When it comes to work, I’m as unreliable and shiftless as they come, when it comes to danger, a problem, a situation that makes other fall to peices, I am a rock of Gibralter. We all have to know ourselves. A lot of men have told me that I have guts. I take it as a compliment. Steady nerves.
You all seem to compare BF to things like Katrina or an asteroid hitting the earth leading to the demise of society and civility.
While I agree that there will be opportunism (hasn’t there always been?), it will NOT be at the scale of any of those events.
Why?
Because those events are isolated and concentrated. Katrina affected EVERYONE in New Orleans, and pickings were easy. EVERYONE was despeartely looking for food/resources (or other loot). EVERYONE’s power grid was out (maybe genny’s but - whatever, you get the point).
If (When?) BF comes, we will see it weeks away - guaranteed (..not a guarantee). Also, it will creep its way across the country in fits and starts. Even more importantly, not nearly everyone will be affected at the same time. More likely, at any given time, maybe 25% will be affected to any degree, with the other 75% fit and healthy.
If the power goes out, you can be assured that crews will be available to fix it. (Don’t expect it in hours - maybe a few days)
Personally, I’m not too worried about food. I’ve always got 3–4 weeks of meat stored in the freezer. If power goes out, I’ll cook/dry/smoke it all. Plus, there’s always hunting/fishing/gathering - lots to be had if you know where to look.
Although not anti-gun, I will never own a handgun for “personal protection”. For all of you considering such measures, take a good long look at everyone you’d be holed up with. The likelihood of someone looting your home vs inevitable cabin fever.
How many here have been on a long car ride with their “loved ones” to want to strangle them after 6 hours of “99 bottles of beer on the wall”? Multiply that by 100 - if you can do it, you might make the first wave.
Do what you can to prep and take reasonable measures to safeguard your home and property (you haven’t got that already?). If you don’t own a gun now, don’t get one.
Plan for the worst and hope for the best.
I have a big garden, lots of food and supplies put away and I plan to help feed and organize my neighbors if it comes to it. I have three neighbors, and my location is fairly rural.
But, human nature being what it is, i am also heavily armed and prepared for TSHTF.
All in all, I’m not overly concerned. I’ve done what I can do.
12 ga blanks are great, when incorporated with a trip wire along the back fence.
Keepin’ it real – at 13:42
I guess we will all have to disagree on this one. We simply do not know what will happen, when, how, the extent, speed of transmission – nothing. We do not know how people will react whether individuals or in mass. If we don’t know what or how we cannot even begin to predict who people will react or how quickly anyone can react to fix it. We don’t know. So as many have said, “prepare for the worst & hope and pray for the best”.
Me, I am one of those folks who believe that under good conditions most people are good & will behave well BUT under bad conditions, most people are bad and will behave badly – all in direct proportion to how good or bad things are and for the bad also in direct proportion to how likely they think they are to have to “pay for their crimes”. And lest we forget one of the lessons from Katrina, looters are not exactly Einstein’s, many stopped to pose for the cameras with the plasma TV sitting on their shoulder, so don’t expect such people to behave logically or sensibly or decently. The other thing that will affect this mentality is how the country reacted to the behavior during Katrina. The bleeding heart libs gave every excuse possible why the looting and other crimes should be forgiven and overlooked and you’d better believe the lowlifes were and are well aware of that. Remember Celine Dion? She was on TV chastising those who dared to see something wrong in looting TV’s and Blue Jeans, “let them have those things, let them touch those things, they probably never have and never will again…blaa, blaa, blaa”. The more we condone crime and bad behavior the easier it is for more and more to behave badly and this will/could bring out the worst in all but a few.
‘Me, I am one of those folks who believe that under good conditions most people are good & will behave well BUT under bad conditions, most people are bad and will behave badly – all in direct proportion to how good or bad things are and for the bad also in direct proportion to how likely they think they are to have to “pay for their crimes”. ‘
I also believe that under good conditions most people are good. Under bad conditions, most people remain good. It’s the ones that are opportunistic that flip to the dark side. Most of those “fence sitters” (let’s call them) are only looting places of business that are deserted and undefended. It’s a crime of opportunity. In a pandemic situation it will be different - inherently.
I don’t expect any place of business to be vacant without security measures(with the possible exception of entertainment venues). Any sign of occupation is an automatic deterrent to these people. The truly diabolical fraction of society is a threat now and that won’t change during a pandemic.
I don’t believe that looting (that is the stealing of non-essential items) should be forgiven. Foodstuffs maybe…
Again we seem to be comparing to a concentrated natural disaster….
Does anyone have any anecdotes of what transpired in 1918?
Keepin it real- Based on everything I have ever studied about level 3/4 novel disease I believe this H5N1 (or varient thereof) will do anything but “creep accross the country in fits and starts”. I hope you could be right. But I am prepared for the predicted type of flu spread.
Re: the defense thing… all it takes is ONE experience of being in a vulnerable situation, unarmed with NO LE available and your mind will be clear about self defense forever.
Keepin it real: We have been talking about 1918 on another thread. Am reading John Barry’s, The Great Influenza.
He states that the streets were empty. People were paralyzed by fear. They starved in their homes. He did not cite any examples of riots.
One town, Gunnison Colorado, had no Spanish Flu in that they had armed men making sure no one came in and nothing was delivered. Interesting.
Another interesting fact stated in the book - over 2/3 of the people who died did not die of the flu, but of the secondary infection that led to pneumonia. IMHO, this argues to get your pneumonia shots.
One important fact I took away from reading the book is that the LONGER you can distance yourself from the crisis stage of the pandemic (those 2 −3 weeks when it is most virolent), the better chance you have of catching a slightly weakened form of the flu and the better chance you will have of surviving it. So, to those who say there is no benefit in prepping, I would argue that the longer you can hold out, the more chance you have of not catching the flu at its very worse; you may catch a less lethal form of the flu; and you may catch it during the time when doctors and hospitals are not at the ultimate max. So, keep prepping so that you can isolate during those most critical weeks.
Janet,
I appreciate that the 1918 flu is being discussed on another thread, but the original poster seemed concerned re: security in the face of a virulent strain of influenza. Up until now, the discussion has revolved around events of an apocalyptic (albeit localized) nature. Thank you for your input with respect to previous pandemics and then ensuing societal disruption. I believe that is the information we’re looking for.
MAV,
‘Based on everything I have ever studied about level 3/4 novel disease I believe this H5N1 (or varient thereof) will do anything but “creep accross the country in fits and starts”. ‘
Perhaps that was a tad over-simplified. But the point is still valid. Yes, a LOT of people will be sick, but it can’t be compared to a total and complete evacuation of a city ala Katrina. Even assuming a (very high) CFR of 25%, not everyone will be susceptible to the virus in the first place.
What we need are betting odds….
1. The likelihood of apocalyptic societal breakdown leading to a group of thugs breaking down your door and.. 2. The likelihood of shooting your significant other for continuously humming “Life is a Cabaret”
Just ramblings…
This is purely a conjectural thread. None of us really expect thinks to get as bad as expressed here. BUT, that is not discounting the fact that it ‘might’.
The rioters in L.A. had no concerns about smashing bricks and even a toilet onto the head of Reginald Denny, after they pulled him out of his truck. And there were plenty of businesses in south L.A. whose owners tried to stop the rioters/looters but were beat-up as their possessions were taken. The only places that this did not hapen was Koreatown where the owners fought back. That is what this thread is concerned with.
While ‘cabin fever’ is depicted by Hollywood, the chances of you or some member of your family going ballistic and shooting up the joint is much less likely than someone from the outside trying it. Of course, each of us knows their family better than anyone else. Is one family member engaged in ‘risky’ behavior now? Do they need meds to keep them calm and if so what would happen if those meds were not available? Has he/she talked of suicide? Sure, there are indications that not all families wouild be compatible over the long run, but certainly not all….
Hmmmmm…….
Sure glad I don’t live in the city. Seems life there is already pretty fearful and ugly.
KIR…it is…there are a lot of places, at least in L.A. that the police do not go into unless in strength, especially at night. Interestingly enough, some are only a mile or two from well trafficed areas and those passing by have no idea of what lurks closeby. If interested, I can give you some locations to visit the next time you are in SoCal…?
Closed due to length. Conversation is continued here.
I am going to paraphrase COl. Cooper again.
The function of a handgun is to respond to unexpected threats. It’s the self-defence equivalent of a first aid kit; it may not be the best choice but at least you HAVE it when you need something. Kind of like my Leatherman tool- not ideal for anything but being there.
The function of a shotgun is to provide reliable fight stopping power up to 75 yards away. At close range, nothing beats the stopping power of a shotgun. Buckshot is effective to perhaps 30 yards, slugs to 75 or so. (Brenneke slugs are the best) For home defence a shotgun is hard to beat, IF YOU HAVE TIME TO GO AND GET IT. You may not.
A rifle allows engaging threats out as far as people can be distinguished. I expect with any of my full size rifles to be able to hit a person out to 500 yards, again, if I have time to go and get it. Most people find, especially in this day and age, that carrying a loaded rifle around is a bit tedious and gets them all sorts of attention they don’t need.
To JJF’s point, it is well to have enough people workign together in a group so that while nost are engaged in productive activities (and carrying pistols) that at least one member is on watch armed with a rifle
It is also well to have your preps dispersed in hidden locations so that losing one battle does not mean total disaster. There are several very good books about caching that are worth reading; Ragnar Benson wrote at least one, and there is a out-of-print book I had someplace on secret hiding places….
Finally, I hope to God that I’ll never need to fight. If I do, though, I fight to win. (front sight, press)
KIR- To answer your inquiry- My family is much more at risk if they DON’T have easy access to arms. Any of our good friends who visit are reminded not to forget rule 1.