This article came over as abit heavy handed to me :-
The bird flu files: How Britain would fight a pandemic http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article347799.ece
(Quote from article) :
Ports and airports: Emergency powers would be enforced if necessary.
Ministers would be prepared to introduce emergency powers, which would allow them to effectively take control of the country. They want businesses and emergency planning authorities to comply with government orders voluntarily. They should also plan on the assumption that the Army will not be there to help. But the Government is warning that if adequate precautions are not taken to control the disease, “civil contingencies” powers exist that would allow it to take control of fuel supplies and transport, and to run the country.
… Me thinks we may NOT necessarily be allowed to `hole up as we plan - but rather that we might be FORCED to help out with the sick and other tasks. Any thoughts on this ?
The word is “martial” and Bush has already threatened it here in the state, I wouldn’t be surprised if Blair has done the same.
I would say the use of ‘civil contingency’ powers will be very likely if we get anything like a 1918 pandemic. With our total dependence on just-in-time deliveries for everything from fuel to baby formula, supply chain problems will be the first thing they have to deal with, even before morgues become swarmed. Plus panic and disorderly scenes when hospitals are unable to take any more seriously ill patients.
My concern is not whether they will do this but whether they can do this effectively.
The army has already said they do not have the manpower to take control on a large scale, but can only provide specialist support where they are required, eg critical communications. Police numbers are not sufficient on a good day, let alone when maybe a third of them will be off sick. I don’t know who will be put in charge; I suspect it will be the usual fudge and mess typical of British governance. We will be lucky if there is not too much collateral damage.
Remember that the army people are going to be about as sick as we regular nobs. This is a silly idea.
If we have social unrest or food shortages, we’ll likely see martial law or some semblence of it. All reserves will be recalled taking people away from the regular economy and weakening the system even more.
Let’s pray that we are all able to behave ourselves as a people if this duress occurs.
I’ve occasionally wondered, if the worst case scenario comes to pass, how is it likely to affect the regular transfers of power we call elections?
Now why am I MominBC?
(not MomInBC)
If the worst case scenario occurs, there won’t be elections for a long time. And when there are, the electorate will much reduced.
Go to any military base, and Martial law is in place. Life goes on as usual, but there are rules. You do not speed where children play, when a cop stops you -you do not lie to him, and if you or your kids are causing trouble then you are actually punished. It is not some kind of death sentence. Military personnel, their spouses and their brats live with it, and it is no big deal. Imagine society actually having to behave itself for a change. Those of you who do not like the idea of Martial law will wonder where it is when some un-prepped moron is at your door demanding you “share”. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Security in a crisis is not a good time to tell peacekeepers you are special and should be treated with differnce. They are a little busy with putting their lives on the line to protect you.
Michael, you can’t be MomInBC, I’m MominBC according to my author post. :−0
I’m trying to remember the details of, I think a Presidential Power Act, that was signed into law last spring. Martial law in case of a flu pandemic. I wonder if it would automatically happen, or only if conditions were deemed catastrophic?
Duh, after all that I forgot to change author to the real (fake) me. Eventually I’m going to have to change my handle anyway since I don’t expect things to remain quiet on the western front for long in the war against BF.
When the military is called upon to assist in a crisis there is a large spectrum of activities it can undertake. Yes martial law is one of them. But so is lending medical specialist or equipment to the civilian sector. Or providing vehicles. Or something as simple as providing extra hands. So if a government calls upon its military for help it is not always to declare martial law there are a lot of other options.
Remember the riots in New Orleans after the hurricane Katrina. There are some instances when strong tactics in reaction to poor behavior is simply necessary. It may not be what people want to occur, but it may be the only option remaining under certain extenuating circumstances.
Trust me, the military hate to operate on home soil. It gets everybody all irritated. My dad is retired military and he said the last thing military personnel want to do is be forced to take up arms against their own countrymen. Its a conflict of interest. However, under certain extreme circumstances they are called in so that the greater majority of their countrymen can remain safe on their own soil while a minority of their countrymen do crappy things … such as those we saw occuring during the riots post-Katrina.
Now here is a thought for today. Can’t FEMA declare the equivalent of martial law? I think the answer is yes and I hopefully await corrections.
Monotreme – at 09:15
“If the worst case scenario occurs, there won’t be elections for a long time. And when there are, the electorate will much reduced.”
So will votes cast for incumbents.
Sorry, that was me.
JoeW---I believe that only the President of the US, or a Governor of a state can declare martial law. No agency can do that. If anything should happen to the President, then it falls on the VP, then the Speaker, on down the line. But again, an agency cannot declare ML UNLESS that cabinet member should be in line for, and achieve, the presidency. One of the protections that were put in place by the Founding Fathers…
Remember the term, “emergency authority”. When the balloon goes up, many things (orders, proclamations, etc.) will be made public that have been planned behind the scenes. Contingency plans that you presently have no “need to know” will be put in force. Emergency management of the national power grid will be publically declared. Under those circumstances, we will be told what to expect. Too bad if that catches some of us short (or long); that’s the way this cookie crumbles.
I trust this quote is not too long here is the ref http://tinyurl.com/nmzo9 Please say it ain’t so.
“In a July 1983 series in the San Francisco Examiner, two-time Pulitzer Prize winner Knut Royce reported that a presidential directive had been drafted by a few Carter administration personnel in 1979 to allow the military to take control of the government for 90 days in the event of an emergency. A caveat on page one of the directive said, “Keeping the government functioning after a nuclear war is a secret, costly project that detractors claim jeopardizes US traditions and saves a privileged few.” According to Royce there was a heated debate within the Carter administration as to just what constituted an “emergency.” The issue arose again during the Iran-Contra affair, but even in the wake of all the copy on that scandal, the public got little sense of how far some America’s soldiers of fortune were willing to go to achieve their ends. When the Iran-Contra hearings came close to the matter, chair Senator Inouye backed swiftly away. Here is an excerpt from those hearings. Oliver North is at the witness table: REP BROOKS: Colonel North, in your work at the NSC, were you not assigned, at one time, to work on plans for the continuity of government in the event of a major disaster? BRENDAN SULLIVAN: Mr. Chairman? SEN INOUYE: I believe that question touches upon a highly sensitive and classified area so may I request that you not touch on that. REP BROOKS: I was particularly concerned, Mr. Chairman, because I read in Miami papers, and several others, that there had been a plan developed by that same agency, a contingency plan in the event of emergency, that would suspend the American constitution. And I was deeply concerned about it and wondered if that was the area in which he had worked. I believe that it was and I wanted to get his confirmation. SEN INOUYE; May I most respectfully request that that matter not be touched upon at this stage. If we wish to get into this, I’m certain arrangements can be made for an executive session With few exceptions, the media ignored what well could be the most startling revelation to have come out of the Iran/Contra affair, namely that high officials of the US government were planning a possible military/civilian coup. First among the exceptions was the Miami Herald, which on July 5, 1987, ran the story to which Jack Brooks referred. The article, by Alfonzo Chardy, revealed Oliver North’s involvement in plans for the Federal Emergency Management Agency to take over federal, state and local functions during an ill-defined national emergency. The Constitution does not directly address the question of what should happen in the midst of a major national catastrophe. But neither does it give the slightest support to notions of turning matters over to non-elected civilian or military officials with plenary powers. The best guide is to be found in Amendment Ten which states that the powers of the federal government are those delegated to it by the states and the people. The states and the people have not delegated the power of martial law. Thus in a true crisis (such as a nuclear attack) the answer seems quite plain: the country would be run as a loose confederation of fifty states until a legitimate federal government could be re-established. In the interim, the highest constitutional officials in the land would be the governors.”
I am from the government and I am here to help you.
JoeW, I am sure you mean well, but your last phrase seems right out of some movie and immediately triggers a gut reaction of “I don’t think so!” And I believe that the “highest constitutional officials” would be the governors if it were declared a “state” emergency. However, if the president declares a “national” emergency, the executive orders that come into play are pretty specific and pretty lengthy (there are a ton of them.) Someone posted a lot of that info on a prior link. I have gone to FEMA to read about it as well. I already typed an entire response and erased all of it because I did not feel comfortable quoting as specifically as is needed and I didn’t want this to be too long. One thing that I do know specifically though, is that once the president signs the emergency executive orders into effect, congress cannot vote to change the orders for at least 60 days after the president’s signing. And, the executive orders do negate most, if not all, of our constitutional rights.
The last statement was mine and intended to lighten it up on a potentially scary scenario that appears to be plausible. I am still not sure what to make of the FEMA powers and indirectly was asking for others opinions. Are you saying that is powers are delegated to FEMA that they are in control?
sorry it should read — if powers are delegated
Kathy in FL – at 16:51: Remember the riots in New Orleans after the hurricane Katrina. No, Kathy, I don’t.
kathy in FL. Riots after Katrina? Were you and I looking at the same TV?
I saw 20,000 people waiting patiently in the streets without food or water for help. I saw more thousands waiting at the Superdome as they had for days without sustenance, while folks who stayed in comfy hotels were ushered onto waiting buses in front of them.
They didn’t riot then. Would you have rioted if you were there for days with your dehydrated, hungry children and sick elderly and people who’d been in hotel rooms with food and water were rescued before you, in front of your eyes? If they didn’t riot then, how could they be the animals has you so readily portray them as instead of people?
I saw a several credible reports afterward that interviewed many there (doctors, etc. and other people y’all would believe) that some of the stories of shooting, etc. were overblown exaggerations and/or reactionary lies.
Oh give me a break. There were looters in New Orleans and they cracked down hard of them. Those getting food were fine but lots were stealing TVs. We saw the pictures. Don’t pretty things up to be politically correct. By far the large majority acted very responsibly but some ugly things happened there and to pretend otherwise is silly.
sigh at 00:15, here’s what I saw in New Orleans after Katrina… people who were completely, totally unprepared even after plenty of warning. People who broke into Walmarts and other stores and took whatever they could get their hands on (tv’s, toys, jewelry, etc). I SURE as heck saw very few people at the Superdome waiting patiently for help… instead of helping themselves (ooh, I know, a foreign concept to many these days) they were content to stand knee-deep in their own garbage (and all that garbage must have come from SOMETHING) while screaming that they were starving (after just a few days, starving???, come on give me a break!). I saw far more than I ever wanted to see of the “help poor pitiful me, I can’t do ONE THING to help myself” mentality. It was sickening and very scary to see.
Then there were the idiots who shot at the rescue workers and helicopters.
Replace every New Orleans resident at the Superdome with the members of your local suburban Girl Scout troops, and I GUARANTEE they would have had clean water, clean surroundings, and welcomed their rescuers with a hot meal.
Yes, all those people who were at the Superdome, what struck me the most was their nearly universal lack of regard for anyone or anything but themselves. There appeared to be PLENTY of young, able-bodied people there, but instead of picking up garbage and putting it in piles, they just threw their trash on the ground and were content with standing in it (and there were plenty of food wrappers and beverage containers in that trash!). I saw plenty of young people sitting in chairs while older and obviously infirm people had to stand. I saw some “Two-Ton-Tess” literally screaming how she was starving (guess they could never have airlifted in enough Twinkies to save that poor gal’s life!). These people were very plainly told that the Superdome was a shelter of last resort, and that there were no provisions there and that they should bring their own food, water, etc. Did I feel the least bit sorry for them? ABSOLUTELY NOT…except for the poor kids there who had idiots for parents.
Kim,
What words of encouragement do you have for the 67% of Americans who are wary of bird flu but don’t intend to prepare for it (or can’t afford to prepare) until network news carries real-time footage of the flash point somewhere in the world?
How about my words of encouragement? “Get yourself in front of a TV camera, and scream at the top of your lungs that the GOVERNMENT owes you and needs to come to your rescue, ‘cuz you were too lame to at least TRY to prep for this…”
There may be a very different perspective from population group to population group. After living most of my life now in Florida I can tell you that most people with common sense know that hurricanes are bad things and that they are to be expected because of the area of the country where we have chosen to take up residence. Other places that don’t have the catastrophic event cycle of things like hurricanes may not perceive preparedness in the same light as we do along the Gulf Coast.
Florida in particular starts the hurricane education well before hurricane season starts. Its even in the school system. Most people do a little bit of something for “just in case.”
However, as “well-educated” and even as event effected as our state has been in the last several decades … and especially so in the last two years as hurricanes ramp back up to the high side of number and intensity … there are still a significant enough number of people who sit back and wait for help to arrive after they have chosen to remain in their flood prone homes and neighborhoods. Their reasons for doing so are many and varied but suffice it to say that they place more value on their convenience and stuff than they do on their own lives.
Note that I am not referring to the elderly or health incapacitated. They should make plans based on their own needs. Sometimes this does mean leaning on community and state agencies for help … that’s why the rest of us pay our taxes. But the physically well and able need to get their act together better.
If a hypothetical pandemic of any magnitude does occur in our current environment of education on family preparedness then a lot of people are going to find themselves out to dry. Its hidden, but it is there if people bother listening. For pete sake, even Oprah got in on the act.
Enough credible individuals, both in and out of public office, have stated that you need to prepare. Preparedness isn’t just for a hypothetical panflu event. Its for weather events, economic events, non-pan related health events, etc. People need to get back to the idea of individual responsibility and acceptance of the consequences for their actions or inactions.
My push to friends and family continues to be that preparedness is common sense. Its not about expected and hypothetical events. Its about being prepared for the unexpected events in life regardless of their origin. I get a better response from that than from trying to enlighten them about the “bird flu.”
BroncoBill – at 15:46
That’s going to be a big, noisey crowd.
dubina, I can only echo the replies of BroncoBill and Kathy in FL. There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth by those who prefer to keep their heads in the sand (and we all know what part of you is exposed when your head’s down in the sand!). Everybody makes choices every day in their lives… some of us try to make educated choices, others just drift through life. I’ve made plenty of bad choices in my life, and I (emphasis on “I”) paid dearly for them. If someone makes a choice not to be prepared for anything, that’s THEIR business. If they find out later, after something bad happens, that they made a poor choice, then it’s STILL their business (not mine). People just need to learn that Mommy or Daddy or Big Brother or WHOEVER will not always be there to bail their butt out of the fire. I will always be ready to help a kid who has an idiot for a parent, the low-income elderly, the frail or handicapped. However, if you think that I will give one bean, one grain of rice, one penny to some dodo who had the means but didn’t care to plan ahead and just felt like gambling, you better think again! Guess they just drew a losing hand… unless, dubina, you would like for me to send them to your house????
“Quiplash” said it best this month:
“A lot of pampered North Americans are going to have a quick bobsled ride down Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. It will NOT be pretty.”
I hope the public will realize even martial law does not mean they won’t get sick, or they would all get fed, or that the bodies would all get buried better than they would do it themselves.
Those not having do-able local plans and thinking higher-ups will send in the rescue missions just haven’t done the math.
I am also a bit worried about all the unstable regions in the world right now, all the local-level conflicts; far too many of those. Too many places under martial law already. How’s pandemic going to play out?
Kim - “Yes, all those people who were at the Superdome, what struck me the most was their nearly universal lack of regard for anyone or anything but themselves. There appeared to be PLENTY of young, able-bodied people there, but instead of picking up garbage and putting it in piles, they just threw their trash on the ground and were content with standing in it (and there were plenty of food wrappers and beverage containers in that trash!). I saw plenty of young people sitting in chairs while older and obviously infirm people had to stand. I saw some “Two-Ton-Tess” literally screaming how she was starving (guess they could never have airlifted in enough Twinkies to save that poor gal’s life!). These people were very plainly told that the Superdome was a shelter of last resort, and that there were no provisions there and that they should bring their own food, water, etc. Did I feel the least bit sorry for them? ABSOLUTELY NOT…except for the poor kids there who had idiots for parents.”
In all my 48 years of reading, and believe me, I’ve read a lot, this is one of the ugliest, most ignorant statements I’ve ever encountered.
Think what you will, Scaredy Cat, I stand by what I said. Perhaps you and dubina will be kind enough to post your addresses so those of us who’ve planned (for ourselves and loved ones, not for a bunch of freeloaders) can send the “unfortunate” to your homes to share in YOUR supplies??? Hope you have plenty of care packages made up!
After clicking “post” I realized that at a glance it might appear that the paragraph I quoted above came from me (if someone didn’t notice the “Kim - “). Even though I’m anonymous, I hope no one thinks that. I would be so ashamed.
Kim, this isn’t productive conversation on the wiki.
Scaredy Cat – at 19:48 Thanks for the clarification on that ‘cause at first glance I did think you had posted that. But I read through and figured it out. “In all my 48 years of reading, and believe me, I’ve read a lot, this is one of the ugliest, most ignorant statements I’ve ever encountered.” I agree with our wholeheartedly.
I am finding the wiki as a collective resource really helpful. Kim - the wiki is about sharing. Sharing info, ideas, survival stratedgy etc. You are welcome to hunker down and protect your own. No one here is asking you to share.
Montanan, perhaps you’re right, this conversation is not productive. I have my viewpoints and others have theirs, and sometimes we just have to agree to disagree. I believe this whole line of thinking got started by sigh at 00:15, who apparently saw news footage of peaceful, happy people after Katrina that none of the rest of us saw. Everyone share your supplies as you see fit, I’m only commenting on MY plans.
Well, my elderly ex-nun nextdoor neighbor with no family in the area is being included in my preps. She’s a retired teacher living on next to nothing.
Scaredy Cat,
What exactly was ignorant about Kim’s statement? It wasn’t very compassionate or nice, I’ll give you that, but Kim did not feel very compassionate for the folks who made a bad situation worse because of their actions and inactions. Why should she feign compassion for your benefit?
The problem was that people who were used to the government taking care of their every need were suddenly faced with a different situation. I think if someone had had the guts to stand up and say to the people— “Listen we’re REALLY not going to be able to help you. You need to help yourselves.” — more people would have done so. Instead they showed up with no food or anything and stood around thinking someone was going to fix it.
I know Katrina is a dead horse, but the lessons can be applied to any emergency. This is also why I feel so strongly that people should prepare financially before this thing breaks out. I keep reading posts from people speculating that the government is going to help them on mortgages and rent. That is wishful thinking, just like the wishing thinking that the Food Fairy was going to bring supplies to the Superdome.
Melanie - as my kids would say, “you da bomb!”
Bless you Melanie. It is perfectly understandable for folks to fear that others will be knocking on the door to take their supplies, especially if they live in a hostile environment. I have thought about some community building guides that could be edited for panflu use and realized that they all assume that persons are living in places where connecting and creating community is possible. I was thinking about folks in really urban areas, people in ghetto’s, people in places where there is no internet, no wiki, people who are homeless (including kids), people who are distracted by other current crisis in their lives.
There are a lot of very good people who will not have prepared for a variety of very good reasons. Those of us who can prep should count ourselves lucky and have a little tolerance for others humanity.
Folks, behave yourselves. Consider April’s review of Kim’s statement: It wasn’t very compassionate or nice. Assume she’s right. That’s no way to have a conversation on the wiki.
And any prepping that doesn’t help those who can’t help themselves (not those who won’t, those who can’t) is a failure. doesn’t matter whether we do it through family, friends, failth-based groups, the red cross or government as long as it gets done. But we all assume government is a last resort, and not a reliable one.
Please remember that unless you were AT the Superdome, you saw it all on CNN or whatever. People doing nice things for each other only makes the last three minutes of a show. They look for bad stuff and that’s what gets air time. Looters, well DUH! What city in ruin wouldn’t. I was with them right up until the anti-aircraft battery opened up. When those D__KHEADS turned NO into Beiruit, I lost any sense of an urgent rescue.
April:
people who were used to the government taking care of their every need
That’s an assumption that fits your world view, and, of course, you have zero proof of that. Nonetheless, the lesson of Katrina (another topic we’ve discouraged and now you can see why) I take away is that it has to work for both the French Quarter AND the lower 9th ward, or it doesn’t work. In that, I agree with Montanan.
Montanan, perhaps I’m a bit jaded… unlike you, who gets to live in God’s Country, I am smack in the middle of a huge metropolis that sprawls over about 600 square miles and contains several million people. It will not be all hunky-dorky and wine and roses when TSHTF here, I can tell you. I never said I wouldn’t help ANYONE, just that I’m picky (see my post at 19:17).
Drat.
I thought we were getting along so well, Dem.
You’re right I don’t have proof. But from my experience, people who never get anything from the governemnt, never think the government will ever give them anything. I would not dream of showing up somewhere in an emergency and expecting free food and water. It just would not occur to me that they would or ought to give me anything… but maybe that is just me.
If you all do your research…you will all find that FEMA is to head the emergency government. Have you ever heard of Mt. Weather? Do your research on that facility. We have two government right now, with two sets of all officials. One’s just not active yet. And after WWII…Congress never really rescinded Martial Law…….technically we’re still in it..so technically….our Constitution has been suspended for some time now….but the public does’nt know that yet does it…
Kim, yes preparedness questions are very different depending on where you live and what level of skill you bring to life. I had a friend who came and studied in Montana who was from NYC. Just the fringes of our community scared him, because we are on the doorstep of 100,000′s of thousands of wilderness acres. After 4 years here, he moved back to NYC and that scared him. To the Montanan, New York City can be a scary wilderness.
And I see the individuals sense of community as key to surviving many of life’s problems. It is easy in a small community or a low-population state like mine to find, connect and build a reliable, trustworthy community. I can’t imagine the challenges for an urbanite thinking about how to prepare for BF. But I think that if our society, not just our bodies, are going to survive, we are going to have to have a crash course in identifying our community, whether it is our apartment building, our block, our church community, our bowling league, the people we work with or the strangers who all park in our parking garage and we are going to have to problem solve together to be able to handle the crisis that is coming.
Right now, the flu wiki is a community to me. And I see people here learning enough to help prepare them to be personal survivors and also community leaders. Knowledge (and prepping) can be empowering. I appreciate your realistic assessment of the threat you and your family will be under if the BF pandemic comes. I also encourage you to think about how everything you are learning can be transmitted to others, including those with their heads in the sand. You may be one of the only voices in your area that has the understanding or skill to be able to help others survive when the time comes.
Guys - Every large city is for the most part in the same boat. Some would be better off then others. I have traveled around Asia allot and see that the US is really in the same boat as everyone else. Yes Katrina did show the underside of US culture and yes it was not to pretty. But most countries for one reason or another seem to follow the crowd metality. Knowone will prepare to any big extent. The world does not have the resources to supply the people anyway. Governments know this and understand that some people would die in any serious event. I personaly moved from the city years ago because of my belief in personal prepareness. Weather it is 1. PanFlu 2. War 3. Econimic or some weather related incedent, I and my family try our best to prepare. Now most people will not and that is just something we have to deal with. Even those who do prepare could suffer some losses. What is important is to influence your community and family to think along the line of personal responsibility. I spread this thought or mentality wherever I go. Most people will not lisen or just dont care. But some do and they do start to pay attention to what happens in the world. Sorry for the spelling.
April “I think if someone had had the guts to stand up and say to the people— “Listen we’re REALLY not going to be able to help you. You need to help yourselves.” — more people would have done so. Instead they showed up with no food or anything and stood around thinking someone was going to fix it.”
I think you are right about this. It would have been a lot more kind to just tell people that they had to help themselves. I think we have been led to believe that government will be there when we need them. Not just people getting government services but all of us.
And I think the message that BF is going to require local planning is getting out loud & clear in the snips of news here & there. I’ve read government press releases where the feds have been saying that this is going to be too big for them to handle and we need to figure it out ourselves.
What April said. Besides that FEMA can’t be in more than a few places at anyone time. I can see them helping if your house and preps are destroyed, or helping the old or infirm but there is no promise that the government it here to take care of us otherwise. But people expect it these days. So many people want and expect to be taken care of. Look at all those folks still sitting in government tents and hotel rooms. How many have not even looked for jobs? How many never HAD a job to begin with? They aren’t going to work. They will be on our tax rolls forever. Every MINUTE that I work every day, I am paying for people to sit on their butts and do nothing. If we could get rid of all illegal aliens, we have an entire work force sitting at home, raising illegitimate children and watching TV all day as they do drugs and have the fathers of their children doing nothing but mooching our tax dollars too. Those millions of people that do nothing could be roofing, lawn mowing and picking fruit. Yes, women can do that too. And don’t even mention child care. That can be rotated with the workers. Or, how about community work farms where they can live comfortably, work growing crops and livestock for themselves and for sale, with in farm schools (for children and parents), to get GED’s, job training, social skills and drug rehab. And don’t even start about that being, OHHHH! SLAVERY!!!!. Sorry (well, no). I just worked hard all my life. No one gave me anything and I didn’t expect it either. And, guess what ethnic group I am? I am an American. I will never be one of those hypenated Americans. It is called working for a living and improving your life.
Montanan, I’m well-acquainted with the wonderful Montana culture, and yes, their kindness scared the bejeebers out of my now-retired big-city cop husband. He was just sure that NO ONE could be that nice without some ulterior motive! He’s since learned better.
I also spent several years as owner of a camping and survival gear store, trying my best to educate the masses about the value of being prepared (I have posted on fluwiki several times about those experiences… even had free preparedness classes in my store, but super-low attendance). I may as well have been beating my head against the wall, it was all very depressing. Especially after 9/11, lots of what I’ll politely call “scamsters” took advantage of peoples fears (and pocketbooks), and I expect that as BF fuels up, that will be magnified even more. I come to fluwiki to post tips I hope might be helpful to others, and to pick up some great tips as well. I fear that some here have a rose-colored glasses view of what things could be like when TSHTF. I hope that they never learn otherwise, but I KNOW what will happen in my neck of the woods. It will not be a beautiful Big Sky day here.
Kim, you gotta go with your reality. You are to be commended for trying to help people prepare and I say, keep trying at intervals. They’ll be ready soon enough.
And since life is much, much more than BF - I gotta watch the Antiques Roadshow, :)
Marshal Law - is a seperate topic. Most people where I live are armed and it is just the way things are. Most dont really like the government in their live to begin with and would not appreciate their involvement. We have had several serious snow events and knowone ever showed up from the state, or federal government. We prepare like in the old days for the most part. Now there are people moving in from CA and expect county services to take care of them. They normal are in shock when the first snow comes and the power stays out. Locals understand this and can survive the winter or any event for some perod of time. Outsiders have to adapt or move and in extreme cases die. I know it sounds cold but life really is that way. We fool ourselves to think that nature does not exsist and Panflu or the weather can be beat 100% of the time. Now the problem arrives when the government starts to take from others and distribute their goods. I would say at that point, their would be people willing to resist and all kinds of problems would arrise.
Kim, as someone from N. Idaho I can relate some. It is hard for most people to understand that Safeway is re-stocked every 24 hours. And we consume allot more food then we think we do.
Kim - I would like to know you in the meat world! Good for you for trying. Laura
Has anyone noticed that what FEMA is asking on their site is against US hording laws
Montanan, the very sad fact is that yes, the unprepared will someday be ready to learn about being prepared… but not until it’s too late to do anything about it. Mark my words.
The reason that I like fluwiki is that the people here are ALREADY interested in being prepared. Now THAT I can identify with!
Hoarding is stock piling things during a time of shortage. Now there is no shortage of anything. Of course, FEMA will change that definition to make it what they want to mean.
Thordawggy - actually, there are hoarding laws on the books and have been for about fifteen years and not just in times of shortage. It’s just that these laws haven’t been enforced.
IMO, there is some mentality out there of entitlement. I just saw a newsclip where a Katrina evacuee who had been living in an apartment was evicted. He hadn’t been doing anything to try to support himself and thought he should be able to go on living for free. He got angry and set the building on fire.
Allquietonthewesternfront – at 21:38
Why do people look suspiciously on some news but not other news? We have seen that the media handles things poorly with bird flu. Why would you think that’s the whole story - or that that individual is representative?
Several of these threads really seem to be developing into an anti- mentality. Anti-community, anti-govt, anti-whatever. Really, we need to concentrate on what we can do and stop railing about what (imagined and real) others are or aren’t doing.
We knew going in we were going to be in the minority, not the norm, at least at first. The hope is by setting an example, others will follow, and it’s a race between that and if (not when) a pandemic starts.
All the patting oneself on the back for having the fortune and foresight to prep is fine.
Enjoy yourself gloating when people who don’t have the excess to spend on “prep” are dying, who don’t have time to worry about some rather nebulous future threat when worrying about surviving on $6 an hour is enough.
I’m saying it will not make me feel as good as it will apparently feel for some of you.
I’m not going to sacrifice my own family, but I’m not going to sit around bragging about how superior and wonderful I am either compared to the poor and sick either—and putting them down when I’ve not stepped an inch in their shoes.
Sharing tips and info is productive. But so much rampant unfounded fear and paranoia of others . . .
I guess it’s projection. People who have so much hatred within them for others unlike themselves will certainly project those others behaving as they would in the same situation.
Allquietonthewesternfront:
That is what I was thinking. So FEMA is in a sense asking the US people to break some sort of law. What I woder is how they really plan on enforcing something this law if some government official feels the time has come. How do they determine who has what, or do they just ration what is still left. I noticed that as Katria happened their where very few generators available, so in a sense someone re-directed these to somewhere else. I dont really think the national guard would be willing to enforce the taking of goods from a private citizen. Not where I kive anyway.
sigh – at 21:54
I wouldn’t go that far as to characterizing comments here. But it’s time to get back on topic and discuss martial law if anyone wants (that’s the thread topic) and leave the toxic parts behind us.
Sharing tips and info is productive.
Let’s get back to that.
You establish credibility with links to credible sources. Make assertions without them and you are just another opinion. Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one.
Sigh,
I can not speak for everyone, but I have been on the lower scale of poverty before and was still prepared to survive. It is a matter of will and not always money. So being poor where I live is not an excuse. We are poor for the most part anyway. Now I now do have the ability to add items that I would not have been able to in the past. But for the most part if you live in a city there are some basics that can be done. Rice and beans and empty milk bottles dont cost to much. People should prepare for whatever not just the Bird Flu. Who knows it might not happen and then you are that much closer to being prepared for something what ever happens. Events will always happen. Spanish Flu, WWI, WWII, depression, terrorist attacks ect.. It is just common sense to do what you can. I am happy that I will be able to help others that are in need. But my priority will always be to my family first.
Can anyone supply a link to the US governments Marshal Law plan.
Melanie - Ouch, I didn’t know I had to have chapter and verse for a law on the books I thought was fairly common knowledge. Off to do something with the family but when I have time I will search out the law and post it.
Dem - I was trying to be a moderator in an earlier post to show both sides. I like to live in reality and keep things in perspective by not letting the pendulum to swing all the way one way or the other. I posted earlier that most of the people in New Orleans acted responsibly but I didn’t agree with the assertion that there aren’t any people out there who don’t believe in entitlement. Such a belief is blind, IMO. And I did start with IMO.
I can’t. we have the quarantine laws here, but not martial law. when this question came up the other day, i wrote the health attorneys in FL that posted other flu data… no response yet.
anyone who finds, let me know and I will post to our legal section.
Allquietonthewesternfront – at 22:18
Fair enough, and I appreciate that. And as stated above, this is why we tend to avoid Katrina and politics on the wiki. This thread lends itself to it, of course.
Right now I think we have a golden opportunity to watch what happens simply by watching how Europe is handling BF situations right now. We are already witnessing quarantining, martial law-type experiences, etc. Has anyone on this thread taken advantage of some of the posted links that carry info. about what’s happening in Germany? I followed several, and one article mentioned how the govt. doesn’t even have enough protective gear for them to cull birds efficiently. The german people are fried, according to the article, because of what they are seeing on the news and what is happening in their own country and they are already asking why their country wasn’t better prepared, all things considered? We don’t even have to go back to the 1918 experience for examples—it’s playing out before our very eyes.
mother of five – at 22:33
very good point. very instructive things happening in Europe, some good and some bad.
http://www.washingtonwatchdog.org/documents/cfr/title32/part501.html#501.4 here is a link for limited Marshal law
(Is it an Exective Order, something-or-number?)
Well, somethings in the news, from Oct.2005 (snips follow) http://edition.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/05/bush.reax/
“Bush military bird flu role slammed”
…”A call by President George W. Bush for Congress to give him the power to use the military in law enforcement roles in the event of a bird flu pandemic has been criticized as akin to introducing martial law.”…
…”Giving the military a law enforcement role would be an “extraordinarily Draconian measure” that would be unnecessary if the nation had built the capability for rapid vaccine production, ensured a large supply of anti-virals like Tamiflu and not allowed the degradation of the public health system.
“The translation of this is martial law in the United States,” Redlener said.
And Gene Healy, a senior editor at the conservative Cato Institute, said Bush would risk undermining “a fundamental principle of American law” by tinkering with the act, which does not hinder the military’s ability to respond to a crisis.
“What it does is set a high bar for the use of federal troops in a policing role,” he wrote in a commentary on the group’s Web site. “That reflects America’s traditional distrust of using standing armies to enforce order at home, a distrust that’s well-justified.”
Healy said soldiers are not trained as police officers, and putting them in a civilian law enforcement role “can result in serious collateral damage to American life and liberty.”…
…”The consequences of an outbreak in the United States need to be addressed before catastrophe strikes, Bush said.
The president said he saw things differently than he did as governor of Texas. “I didn’t want the president telling me how to be the commander in chief of the Texas Guard,” he said.
“But Congress needs to take a look at circumstances that may need to vest the capacity of the president to move beyond that debate. And one such catastrophe or one such challenge could be an avian flu outbreak.”
Should avian flu mutate and gain the ability to spread easily from human to human, world leaders and scientists would need rapid access to accurate information to be able to stem its spread, he said.
“We need to know, on a real-time basis, the facts, so the world’s scientific community could analyze the facts,” he said.”
…”Absent an effective vaccine, public health officials likely would try to stem the disease’s spread by isolating people who had been exposed to it. Such a move could require the military, he said.
“I think the president ought to have all options on the table,” Bush said, then corrected himself, “all assets on the table — to be able to deal with something this significant.”…
…”Last month, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Bush “wants to make sure that we learn the lessons from Hurricane Katrina,” including the use of the military in “a severe, catastrophic-type event.”
“The Department of Defense would assume the responsibility for the situation, and come in with an overwhelming amount of resources and assets, to help stabilize the situation,” McClellan said.”…
(oh and it said the US had enough Tamiflu to treat 1% of the US population -bet that was before they decided double-strength treatment courses were needed, call it 1/2 % )
(…”an “extraordinarily Draconian measure” that would be unnecessary if the nation had built the capability for rapid vaccine production, ensured a large supply of anti-virals like Tamiflu and not allowed the degradation of the public health system.”…
Oh; why do I look at this stuff before I have to try and sleep at night? I forgot hearing him say he wanted all the “options” on the table. I could have looked at flowers and mountains and happy people on flickr http://www.flickr.com/ instead. Found someone there to translate the Wiki to Portuguese, or Chinese, or Arabic, or something…)
I pulled some of this from the FEMA site: FEMA was created to assure the survivability of the US govt. in the event of a nuclear attack on this nation. It was also provided with the task of being a federal coordinating body during times of domestic disasters, such as earthquakes, floods and hurricanes. FEMA has been given control of the State Defense Forces, a civilian army that will substitute for the National Guard, if the Guard is called to duty overseas. FEMA was created in a series of executive orders. Executive Order #12148 created the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Executive Order #12656 grants the government the right to isolate large groups of civilians. EO#10998 allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under govt. supervision. EO#11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned and establish new locations for populations. EO#11049 assigns emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative executive orders issued over a fifteen year period. EO#11921 allows the FEMA to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in US financial institutions in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months.
I couldn’t find the one that technically mentions martial law. There are so many of these executive orders, I did not want to list them all, but these seemed appropriate for this thread. :)
You should read the Posse Comitatus Act, which prevents troops from performing LENF functions.
I am a Viet-Nam vet. The military gives a soldier the right to refuse an unlawful order. You have that right too, if given to you by a soldier. So if our traditions mean anything in this country, you will have fellow Americans deciding if what they are told to do, makes sense. Martial Law, I am not worried at all about it. If good people in all positions just remember their jobs, our history, our laws, our traditions then we will do just fine. If a man in uniform comes up to you and tells you he has orders to take your food. Don’t let him. It is not a lawful order. But think. Do you have 7000 tons of potatoes for your family, that will go bad if not shared or do you have a 25Lb bag? What makes sense…just do that. I have something I want to say about being poor. I have been there big time. If it were not for a handout and a helping hand, I would have landed in prison. With help (survivors benefits from Social Security for an only child whose dad died when I was 16), I managed to get a BA, and a Masters degree and be of some use. Now I pay cash for new cars, go on vacations, have a nice home and contribute to our collective good. Maybe some social programs have some value….ya think…or do you just hate? It is people who are filled with hate that you must watch out for. Our military will only make you proud to be an American even if it comes to martial law. So relax, we have a great country here.
Dude, I love to hear someone praise our military :) Have you heard about the young military man that refused an order to put on the uniform of the UN and take orders from the UN? This occurred during the Clinton Administration. He refused to put on the uniform and he was dishonorably discharged. I can’t remember if he is bringing a lawsuit against the govt. or the reverse? I wish I could quote more adequately, sorry, poor connections between brain and type! and I don’t want to state something that isn’t. I thought of this because of your first line in your post. It was illegal of the Commander in Chief to give that order, but the young man has had to pay the price for not obeying the order. I believe the judge told the jury to disregard the fact that the original order was illegal and that they were to function under that understanding. But, I was proud of what I saw from news coverage of how our military handled themselves in the Katrina circumstances. And I say that with the qualification that not everything we see or read is always accurate or truthful, but I felt proud of our military from what I saw and what I read.
Too tired to see straight. When hubby finally got off computer I started researching hoarding laws. Very complicated, been years since I looked into it. What I had forgotten was that each state was left to inact their own hoarding law and determine amount of food allowed. In Hawaii it is one week. Usually it is more like three months. Presidential Executive Order 10998 food confiscation takes place in state of emergency. Pres. Clinton declared a state of emergency Nov. 14, 1994 and continually renewed it so that EO 10998 has been legally in effect. Reason for SofE due to proliferation of weapons of mass destruction in the world. I’ll have to search Patriot Act to see if SofE still in effect. Gone tomorrow so later I’ll have to try to find links if anyone is interested in any of this.
Mother of five….regarding the FEMA info….now your on the right track. Mt. Weather is a top secret facility operated by FEMA that houses the “contingency” government. Fully loaded with all department heads including a back-up president and vice-pres…..who we neither now of their identities nor have we elected them……
I think I’ll abandon this thread for those who wish to work on it. I’ll check in in a few days. It has little to do with flu, likely events and such, but it is public info and if it exists, it can be gathered.
The “clear and present danger” thread and the “confiscating weapons” thread have been closed… participants are invited here. Flu Wiki is not a militia site, or a site concentrating on guns. It is a flu site. Please keep perspective on your discussion.
Sometimes in the case of a pandemic…especially a worse case senario….guns are a very relavant topic.
Dem is quite correct ofcourse and has very good reasons for maintaining strict control of the topics. I also do agree that Firearms may be a valid point of discussion here when discussed in relation to Family security and home defence which is ofcourse very very revelant to a Cat4/5 Pandemic event.
We just need to use common sense and not discuss things that would attract the attention of people we dont wish to attract.
:)
I appreciate that…
I second that emotion :)
What if some of us don’t have firearms…how should we protect our families? I really wanna hear some suggestions…
Hey all you guys, I just saw on the Weather Channel that even after the last devastating hurricane season, only 18 per-cent of the people in hurricane prone areas of America have prepared supplies (even for basic items) for the new hurricane season, which starts in 90 days - without a doubt that it is coming. If Katrina’s aftermath isn’t enough to get those people to prep……well…….what will? Those other 82 per-cent of people are not survivalists. Survival takes independence of thought. Survival takes all your mental and physical faculties. Survival thinking is a very hard way to think. Most people just can’t do it, never tried, won’t go there, doesn’t apply to them. Last minute panic prepping won’t do the job for bird flu, you have to pre-think survival. I admire all you guys for thinking for yourselves, a disappearing art in our society today. Now is the time for some psychological ingenuity, or engine-nuity, you know to get it going. We are still at the drawing board.
Does anybody really think, they will be sitting inside for weeks with their stash of food and not have the non-preppers “NOT” come knocking at the door. Or busting the door down!!! If this really does happen…no one will be safe with anything they own.
Melanie, What army are you talking about? There is no army big enough to watch over millions of people.
I hope none of you gun-toting people live in my neighborhood..I wont borrow a cup of sugar..might get a gun barrel pointed at my snout
For Gods Sake, how many people will shoot their neighbor!! Or who would shoot the starving child down the street!! Just isn’t gonna happen. Most people will give up everything they have for others!! The problem is that our government isn’t telling people to plan ahead so everyone will have enough saved. Still many won’t, but planning for something this awful would help.
barb…I agree…I wouldn’t want to live in a world where neighbors kill each other over a morsal of food
Survivor, that’s why this needs to be a community project. We need to be getting our community active!!! No one can do this alone!!!! Write Congress!!! Call your County Executives.
barb…true…I want to be part of the “ Cure”, not the “ Disease” during pandemic
Barb, I could never shot anyone. (perhaps pepper spray them or sonic blast them) I have an addition “prep” just for a “starving child” and have even registered with social services (took the classes and had the home study) for emergency care provider for a child or two. I would recommend others to do it as well. It is love, knowledge and cooperation that will get us through and not force of guns.
I live in the woods, and there is no way that I could ever “defend” my home even if I wanted (One guy with an SUV would easily go through my walls). Instead I have opted to have hidden supplies spread over my 20 acres. I have 500 gal of stored water and a hand pump to a well. Anyone that wants to pump with their hand will be welcomed.
I don’t think that guns are the ultimate answer. I think the answer is knowledge. I even have a few “edible forest plant” handouts that the local boy scouts prepared just for the general area. (there is a BSA camp nearby). If someone shows up at my door: I will let them pump all the water they want and give them a handout and point them to the woods. I might even offer to help them dig for roots (depends on social distance required). I prefer to live on hope than fear.
Denniscra…Good for you !!! It is good to read some positive postings here ! Please stay true to yourself..wish I lived next to you !
In the human race, the only winners are the ones that help each other get to the finish line.
survivor- …lived next to you…. My nearest neighbors (other than the park service and the indian reservation) are about 1/2 mile away. I am lucky, my “neighbors here” are retired,… nurse, secret service, DEA, highway patrol, county police, UASF SACS piolet, and a professional gambler. We share a water system but a few of us still have hand wells. The “town” is 5 miles away and is only 600. It took me to 40 to realize that this and not city living was what I really wanted and to stop chasing after the “brass ring” and just relax. Now instead of thinking of a trip by how fast I can drive, I leave early,put a box of tools in the back and see how many people I can help along the way. - OK so I am strange. But it has made my life happier. To each his/her own.
Again, I would suggest people call Social services and volunteer to be emergency care providers, volunteer EMS providers, and so on. Trying to move the government is OK but it still take just individuals doing things. As any disaster area - volunteers are what saved them - After all is said and done, more is said than do….. just do something. If I am shot in this pandemic, I would rather be shot for trying to help someone than shot for greed.
anonymous I just got through watching Harry Potter Gobblet of Fire (a bit on the dark side). To me the point was that he won not being the best flyer, the most powerful or the most learned but because he helped others and he had friends that cared.
survivor – at 13:10
You already DO live in that world. Perhaps you meant country.
I’m puzzled by the US Government’s position on this one. Normally, you would see a spokesperson positioned out front reassuring the public not to panic while telling us “Everything is being done; experts are working diligently on a solution”.
This time, by contrast, this stance is conspicuously absent. Instead we are being told to not expect any help from the Feds. They’re going around state-by-state encouraging everyone to stockpile food, to forget about help and not to look forward to an effective vaccine becoming available by the time when it may be needed.
I plan to do my own prepping. I’m not asking for the government to supply food (although I do believe it should have emergency food and water available for those who may run out or didn’t prep). But I do expect them to provide things that I cannot. The government should make sure that adequate and effective vaccinations and antivirals are available for all and that health care facilities are available in major cities (at least) and that pharmaceuticals can be obtained. I expect them to ensure that banks remain solvent.
I don’t understand why, under these circumstances, they are continuing to send all my tax $ to Iraq when the money should be spent right here for setting up government-run vaccine research and production laboratories in whatever number is required to manufacture and research all that is needed to keep this country going.
Is there something they know that they’re not telling? Or is it possible some of this is going on already and they just aren’t saying anything about it in order to prevent panic?
And why is information in the main stream (government statements and main stream media) so sparse? I have gotten most of the main stream media information I’ve seen from the ticker at the bottom of the screen while political nonsense is being discussed.
Sea Urchin – at 14:16
Why does the media cover celebrity stories, murders and missing white women? Political “nonsense” is so much more interesting (and arguably more important)!!! ;-)
The media covers what sells. But if they’re just going to hype “killer flu” with no practical information and sober analysis, who needs them?
“I admire all you guys for thinking for yourselves, a disappearing art in our society today. Now is the time for some psychological ingenuity, or engine-nuity, you know to get it going. We are still at the drawing board.”
Reader, Thanks, and you are right about the thought process that is needed. All of us are pioneers of common sense without carrying the hard core survivalist image.
Now, be prepared to give last minte instructions to all your “happy” relatives over the phone while trying to keep their heads unscrewed so they can muster up whatever they can at the last minute.
I think Health and Human Services Secretary Mike Leavitt looked at FEMA and Michael Brown getting trashed after a enourmous storm and he wants to keep HHS from falling in the same ditch. BF has the potential to be overwhelming. Saying “Save yourselves” to individuals and the states is at least more honest than many agencies are willing to be.
Nice Dem, very nice. “white women”, that’s so balanced and fair. Not.
Olymom – at 17:38
I give Leavitt (an ex-governor and someone with at least some political horse sense) credit for trying. He’s a good speaker, as well.
In the best of times, government has marginal control. All do not pay their taxes. Many are involved in illegal activities that run the gamut from speeding to murder. Should this thing happen as is expected, there is a real question as to whether or not a number of governments around the world would survive. I suspect it will survive here in the states because it is part of our mind set. Most Americans have a general understanding of the Bill of Rights. Martial law may be tried in an effort to contain the pandemic, but if this thing blows hard on us it will be impossible to find enough martials. The effort will fail and disease will spread to the hinterlands. Even in the worst case, I don’t think it will turn into a road warrior world. After the hurricanes, we here in Florida pull ourselves out of the wreakage and see who is left alive. We hand out food and help old ladies cover their roofs. I know it sounds morbid, but the black death broke the back of a tyranical church, sparked the renaisance and improved the lives of the survivors. It moved us from mysticism to science. This thing will have a profound impact, but it will not be the end of the world. If nothing else, the price of real estate will go down.
NEMO – at 18:07
That’s not the type of coverage I’d want for panflu.
anonymous – at 18:21 “If nothing else, the price of real estate will go down.”
Please….my wife and I just got into real estate sales last year. Don’t tell me that!! :→><<
Nancy Grace. The most grating voice on television today. Sort of the female version of Jerry Springer, without the bouncers!!!
BroncoBill – at 18:25
Think of the bright side. The caldera in Yellowstone may blow, making kansas have the best beachfront property on the market.
DEM, had to smile at that. I do keep tabs on what the “news” is on television, but then try to back that up with multiple sources, just as I do with Avian Bird Flu. Unfortuantely, “news” is manufactured, and it is always a “buyer beware” market. Everyone should keep that in mind, even in our quest for the Avian Bird Flu truths.
It makes sense to me that if the National Guard is nationalized and under federal government control then troops from Ohio are sent to California and California troops are sent to Korea (little California humor there) then the troops can establish a quarantine. The military has tons of gas masks so the troops remain safe as needed. Conclusion, FEMA or federal control is a doable sort of thing. Or did I miss something?
DemFromCT – at 18:29 — I heard about that a couple of years ago….and lots of developable <?> land. Interesting stuff. and to add to that, if a mega-volcano blows in Yellowstone, it could possibly trigger massive quakes in California, causing this state to fall off into the ocean and allowing me to surf all the way to Phoenix!!! ;-)
I have no idea why this disturbed me a bit. A flyer from one of the local postoffices. Bring in your documents, get your Passport this Saturday. Spanish and Chinese speaking interrpeters. I never recall anything like this before. What is going on? Does anyone know?
more info please..Lily
Lily---in reply to your above post, what country are you in?
Good old U.S of A. I always had to send my old passport in the Washington D.C. befor being issued a passport. I just recalled the flyer in my mailbox. I am tempted to trot down on Saturday to see what is going on. I will stop by tomorrow and ask. It seems unprecedented to me. Issuing U.S. Passports like that.
I wonder if they are going to have a sweepup of our illegals. We have many with work permits, but many without. I don’t know how many millions of illegals we have here in the United States, but more than any other country in the world. They work hard, but end up costing us Billions.
Living in TX, that would be a big percentage of our population, and I imagine the same would be true in CA, AZ and NM.
I’d be willing to bet that since summer is coming on, and Hispanic and Asian people here in the US have families in their native lands, they’re just pushing to get folks in while the Post Office has interpretors on hand to translate.
OTOH---your theory could hold true. But the cost of detaining a huge number of illegal immigrants via the Post Office could outweigh the benefits of having them come in. And, if the flyer says “bring in your documents”, this would require those people to bring proof that they are here legally.
Head on down there this Saturday and try to find out what’s going on….
I have some time left on my old passport, I better check it out tonight. If it less than a year, I’ll get a new passport photo and get a renewed passport. It just seems very strange.
I think its o.k.. Just checked the flyer, it says Apply for U.S. passport here, not that they would issue it. I haven’t gotton a new passpot in years, so this is a new service. I guess the services of an interpreter is a one day offer. Feel unperturbed now. Things change.
Whew….
Do you know that you will need a US passport after Jan 07 to go back and forth to Canada and Mexico and that it needs to be one of the computer readable? - at least that is my understanding. http://tinyurl.com/pawkh
Was talking to a woman Tuesday who told me she had her passport stolen in London. The embassy issued her a new one in a few days. Another man had his stolen in Italy and they tossed him into jail. He had other I.D. plus credit cards, and his wife to verify, but that was not enough for the Italian Carbiniri.
JoeW at 18:38-“Conclusion, FEMA or federal control is a doable sort of thing. Or did I miss something?”
I’d say you might have missed the 600 to 1 ratio of civilians to NG (and that’s when they’re all in America), or the millions of square miles that those 600 have to misbehave in.
Small communities can deputize some of its trusted citizens. Do not discount the locals. For example, in this part of the world there are about 50 Volunteer firemen/women per 500 residents and they know who live here. Our sheriff is known to deputize fireman during times of forest fires and even homecoming games. If yours doesn’t, then you need to find someone else to run in the next election. I still suggest that concern people volunteer. The choice is ours of anarchy or community cohesiveness. Your community is what you make it.
Denniscra, I just don’t think any of this is within the capabilities of local governments. In the Northeast especially. Large cities and burbs will be totally uncontrollable. I understand that Interstate 95 is supposed to be closed off in one direction, for any disaster. In my area…you can’t even evacuate from one small area without being stuck on the road for hours. Look whats happened in all the areas that have had hurricanes. Police are limited in what they can control and I’m afraid there just aren’t any plans for something like this. Thats why I think everyone should write their Congressman and demand that the think tanks start working this out.
Jill, It is in the capabilities of some locations – small rural, close knit. I actually feel sorry of those living in high population regions and never really understand why they wanted to live there - but that is another story. I also don’t understand why in a pandemic you would want to leave and where you expect to go if you leave. After all, a pandemic is by definition EVERYWHERE. Here do the people expect to go? Why would they want to try to live off of only what they could fit in a car and be stuck in traffic for days on an interstate with thousands of others that have no water or food. My guess is that the people stuck on the road will be much more violent than in town. I can understand leaving for a hurricane to a place inland, but in a pandemic you are just going from one sick area to another that does not have hospitals for thousands and risk be trapped along a road. They will end up living in their car and being at the mercy of anyone driving by with a gun. Do they really want to go from a town with a hospital to one with no health service?
Again where do these people expect to go and why?
Government can do many things well. Protection of the individual from random acts of violence is not one of them. I’m a Floridian. We have some of the most liberal gun carry laws in the nation. As a Floridian, I feel pretty dog gone safe. From my perspective, the urban areas might want to reconsider their postion on gun abolition. The right to self defense is a natural right and should not be abridged by legislation. An opinion shift in favor of gun ownership would helpful to those who want to look after their own safety.
Hey pipes an AR15 is an awsome tool. My comment was actually addressed to the idea that some people in gov’ment will think this way. How effective it will be is another matter. At first I thought that there is no way one could get the National guard to quarentine their own people. Given Bush’s attempt to federailze the Guard, other thoughts come to mind about how the military industrial complex might be thinking. Ike where are you when we need you (not a political comment).
FEMA will step in and take over food distribution (ie., take over grocery stores, food warehouses, etc. if needed in an emergency. They do have that authority and have had it for many years.
Didn’t work out too well during Katrina, but then, FEMA wasn’t really working in that situation. Who knows if they can manage this now? They used to be able to assist much more successfully during emergencies then they can now — too swallowed up in the mess that is Homeland (In)Security.
On another note — I grew up near Mount Weather. It was a standing joke that it was a “secret” installation.
jaydawg707 - The best home defense is to make your home unattractive to potential looters or criminals. Good out door lighting, motion detectors, a well kept yard with no large shrubs or hedges that can give someone cover/concealment, and keeping your garage door shut so people don’t know what is in there. That and simply not advertising your preps to everyone is probably the best home security you can have. If people don’t know you have something they will not be trying to take it from you.
Allquietonthewesternfront - “each state was left to inact their own hoarding law and determine amount of food allowed.” Iam interested in learning more about these laws. I hope you will research this and share what you find. I wonder if there is some database that would enable us all to know what each state allows?
Thank you for suggestions Poppy
Make no mistake, our military and police are well-trained and very disciplined, and will shoot if ordered to do so. Someone asked “Where are all these people going?” I have family working in large metropolitan areas who will be trying to get home to me. I want to be sure that they can. I am pretty sure that many in such areas will have a sort of plan to evacuate and head for alternative homebases. If the military are going to help with traffic control and food distribution, fine. But if they are going to wait for riot control and shoot into crowds of desperate mothers and old people, then I get a little nervous. due to the fact that much of our society has been trained not to watch what little media news coverage there is, there will be many who don’t know anything until TSHTF. Single moms working parttime for minimum wage and going to school, and the elderly will be the most in need of help.
If manpower is what the military is to be used for, and if volunteerism is needed, I suggest that they are needed NOW. A door to door campaign to assess needs and help to stockpile necessities in each household is needed right now. Every mayor in every town or city should already have been doing this. Food distribution centers, welfare offices, schools, and WIC programs should have already given out instructions for preparations. Isolation techniques should have already been explained, even if it takes block to block organization. Okay, some inner-city neighborhoods are dangerous. Now’s the time to clean it up, and martial law is probably the only way it’ll get done, as police are stretched as far as they can go as it is. The poor who live in these areas should have already been made aware of ways to organize and prepare. Unsavory elements in these areas should already have been dealt with. In case anyone hasn’t noticed, we have been at war for a long danged time, and these measures should already have been addressed in terms of homeland security, if I may be so bold as to use the term. Victory gardens have always been a good idea, and container gardening for city residents is something we now know a good deal about. If the SHTF, todays leaders and organizers and volunteers and good neighbors will be tomorrow’s elected officials (politicians take note). I have downloaded the recent gov’t announcement, but won’t have time to read it all for a couple of days. I can’t wait to see how many ways the feds won’t be able to help, and how many ways they will have hidden threats to liberty between the lines (I say this with my tongue planted firmly in my cheek).
Can we have a little proper spelling please? “Martial” law.
TTin AdaOK – at 05:02 …”If manpower is what the military is to be used for, and if volunteerism is needed, I suggest that they are needed NOW. A door to door campaign to assess needs and help to stockpile necessities in each household is needed right now. Every mayor in every town or city should already have been doing this. Food distribution centers, welfare offices, schools, and WIC programs should have already given out instructions for preparations. Isolation techniques should have already been explained, even if it takes block to block organization”…
Yes, yes, yes.
National Emergency Powers (U.S.)
I for one do not want Martial law. I feel myself and my fellow citizens are more than capable of handling out little valley. Let the first shot come at a civilian from the military or police and an insurrection could follow. Better to let us experienced country folk handle this kind of emergency ourselves. The government can support us.
NIdaho – at 15:07 The government has already said they will not be able to assist communities-as if anyone post-Katrina had a doubt. I think rural areas will see less unrest. Big cities will have some degree, I think, from lack of accurate information, access to all services previously provided ie medical, banking, food, utilities etc. If martial law were ever used anywhere, that’s where I’d expect it.
I dont expect any support, but it would be nice if it arrived.
Don’t count on anyone but yourself. period. You will be less disapointed.
Here is a thought. I suspect the organizations that will be most able to capitalize on chaos are the proto states and surrogate families we have come to recognize as gangs. At first blush, shooting at rescuers in N.O. does not make any sense. However, from a gang’s point of view, it makes perfect sense. Rescuers are the first wave of the legitimate state’s effort to reestablish authority. If you can turn back the rescuers, you can forestall the state’s attempt to assert authority.
John c - it will be difficult to disappoint me any more. I was fed up over 15 years ago. Things don’t seem to be getting better. I suppose any event would most likely be used by the government for something other than helping us. Times have changed for the worse and I don’t see things getting better for a long while.
Ya know the inner city is going to have sick folks too. They are not in the best position on a day to day basis. They deserve at least a safe enviornment. If marshall law will acomplish it thats what should be done. I just dont see where all these warm bodies to do all the things needed are going to come from. There are only so many troops available. Are they cloning some. Seems to me that we are short manpower for all the jobs that are supposed to be done by the miltary
Regardless of federal or state instructions to “authorities”, I can imagine there will be a fair amount of glorified deputies out there asserting thier importance. In the past few years “security” has become big business, and there are a lot of mall security guards out there who are dying to catch themselves a terrorist, or failing that, some other villian. I don’t much like saying this because I have great respect for law enforcement officers and military personnel, but there are a lot of self important pants that have been hiked up high, and some rather itchy trigger fingers, thanks to the “war on terror”. I see this as a real potential problem. No one will police the police, will they?
Cops are like bananas, some are green, some are ripe, and some are rotten.
If TSHTF, law enforcement can deputize ordinary citizens to help and I have friends who have already alerted their local sherrif’s department that they are able and willing to help.
Without an intact local government, I am assuming that I am on my own. I expect we will revert to the old “village” mentality. We will cooperate and govern ourselves in small groups. Probably not feasible in the city. There are certain people who will expect the government to take care of them-be merciful-this belief was encouraged throughout their lives and it is hard for people to understand that it may be impossible for government intervention.
If martial law (government control) is for our own security, then wouldn’t prison (total government control) be the safest place to be. . .
SCW AZ Total control, I like that. We can end poverty by shooting the poor. We can stamp out ignorance, well you know, the list goes on. When you make the short list and find yourself on your knees in front of a mass grave, you might want to think about the day you surrendered your destiny to some guy who couldn’t get a real job. It doesn’t matter who is in control, with either the fascist or the communist; the bullet hole in the back of your skull is about the same size.
Who is Marshall and why do we need his law when people are frightened?
And now for something completly different….
Murphy’s law. I declare Murphy’s law! Just kidding. I still say you are your own best bet. Keep low.
The original question was Can the president declare martial law?
In a way he has with a white house letter issued in January 2006 that allows detaining passengers on ships, trains, buses, autos, aircraft arriving at the US border, if there is a threat that one or more have the flu virus.
A similar letter was used in 2003 in Chicago for a plane arriving from Asia when SARS was the big problem.
The question now is he exceeding his powers? and if not what are his limits?
Here is the executive order and amended here.
I expect we will revert to the old “village” mentality. We will cooperate and govern ourselves in small groups.
If you’re not doing it now, what makes you think you’ll magically be able to do it when the chips are down? Suburbanites in particular are going to be challenged by this: they live in a “me” world, they own one (or more) of everything they use — each household with its own riding mower, you bet — and they don’t know their neighbors very well. Instant solidarity from people living in a world where “me first” is rewarded above all? Don’t think so.
lbb:
You could be right but the news loves to report all the bad things happening remember New Orleans and the 50 dead people in the last chance shelter? No one ever found them.
There was alot of people helping neighbors and themselfs with out complaint. People including me left my state (Florida) and went to help, no one asked We just went and helped were we could.
I expect that the ones that survive this disaster(s) will in time grow together due to having the same experiences. Things like that draw people together remembering and teaching the next generation.
Marshal Law/ Enforced quarantines… I’m always ranting about enforced quarantines being 1st line “treatment” in a level 3/4 disease outbreak. Well today I came across this.
In the WHO’s most recent “Checklist for Influenza Pandemic Preparedness Planning” document (which is aimed at governments, public health institutions and infrastructure) section 4.1 “…nonmedical interventions may be the only way to delay the spread of the disease” (talking about enforced quarantines)
section 4.1.3 “consider designation of places where persons can be held in quarantine” (talking about detaining “contacts” of infected people)
Wasn’t there a post somewhere on the wiki about large ‘camps’ being built on American soil? It was a large contract won by, imagine this, Haliburton. I know I saw it somewhere on here….
There is some debate as to whether those will be for the illegal aliens or the citizens, ha ha. But here’s the NY Times article about it. …”the centers could be at unused military sites or temporary structures and that each one would hold up to 5,000 people.”…
(Whenever I see this thread title, I see a dusty sherrif in chaps and a very dirty white hat, ready to draw his guns. Ol’Marshal Law, ready to declare Martial Law is in effect.)
llb @ 2251:
“I expect we will revert to the old “village” mentality. We will cooperate and govern ourselves in small groups.
If you’re not doing it now, what makes you think you’ll magically be able to do it when the chips are down? Suburbanites in particular are going to be challenged by this: they live in a “me” world, they own one (or more) of everything they use — each household with its own riding mower, you bet — and they don’t know their neighbors very well. Instant solidarity from people living in a world where “me first” is rewarded above all? Don’t think so.”
I beg to disagree with you. I am a suburbanite, I have a riding lawnmower, I don’t do excessive interaction with the neighbors that surround me, but…
I have experienced scenarios where the ‘chips were WAY down’ in my area, and I have experienced neighbors pooling together, helping each other out, giving and receiving, etc etc etc.
While time will tell for sure, blanket statements like yours are quite untrue. Perhaps where you live your neighbors would pit themselves against each other, but where I live the neighbors help each other. And THAT is in a big bad city like Miami.
Shad.
The underlying suggestion by the WHO is that enforced quarantines are used in an attempt to “contain” the spread of the disease as best as can be done and since there is no cure or effective treatment, to let the disease “die out” within the quarantine boundries.
This same disease control measure, quarantine, has been used in this country before. From the strictly run TB sanitoriums in the early 1900′s, Bubonic plague in San Francisco in 1900, Typhus fever outbreak in 1917 in ElPaso, TX, to the Hatian immigrant detainments at Guantanamo Bay in the 80′s. Many HIV Hatian “suspects” where kept for several years without treatment, many of whom died there. From what I have read the quarantine boundries have always been drawn on very politial and ethnic lines.
Illnesses are often blamed on segments of the population and in fact 15 years after a cholera epidemic had been blamed on Russian Jewish immigrants, the National Quarantine Act of 1893 was signed into law by president Harrison.
Closed due to length. Conversation is continued here.