It appears that the President’s plan outlines using the National Guard to control riots, looting, civil unrest, etc. At first I thought “yeah, right”, look what good it did in New Orleans.
But then I started to think that New Orleans had a very unique set of cirumstances that may not be so in a pandemic. In New Orleans, the National Guard could not physically get to the location to restore order.
Assuming that our National Guard would be the first ones to receive a vaccine or Tamiflu, enabling most of them to report for duty, do you think it might be possible for them to maintain order and control over the one year period??? I don’t know enough about the National Guard to answer that. Is there anyone out there with some information or background?
Janet: Maintain order where exactly? Sending in the “Guard” works when you are sending them to one particular place.
How many Guard members would it take to escort food haulers, protect grocery and megastores, pharmacies and hospitals in every city and town? (And what other tasks would we expect them to do? Guard banks, electronic stores, department stores,…) The mind boggles.
Guarding is only one kind of task. Then there’s waterworks, firefighting, dead bodies… We don’t have enough troops, do we?
The task does seem rather daunting, however, I think a National Guardsman standing with a machine gun might go a long way in maintaining some sort of order outside of a bank, or a store, or a hospital. Maybe I am in one of my more “naive” moods today (believe me when I say that I take all of this very seriously and have prepped to the max over the last six months - including a gun), but it seems that being able to strategically place the National Guard across the US in key locations should help a little - especially if they are all in place before civil unrest occurs. That requires a plan.
Not at all sure how many Guardsmen we have but I do know of alot of men that are on inactive reserve (on reserve in that they are older). I would imagine these inactive reserves would be called in, active reserves would be called up and a good number of our military troops would be called back from overseas.
Just wishful thinking at this point. I certainly hope I am lucky enough to see a number of heavily armed and fierce looking National Guardsman posted in my town should TSHTF! Sure beats us individual citizens trying to shoot an intruder on our own (though it may come to this too).
Such a plan also assumes the Guard and their equipment are back from overseas, that there is a vaccine (6 months to 6 years away), they are willing to give out thousands of doses of Tamiflu we don’t yet have to the Guard rather than healthcare workers, and assumes they have a defined “mission” to do, and have enough personnel to do it.
They would also have to Federalize the National Guard to follow Presidental orders. They tried to do that in LA, and the Governor wouldn’t do it, and most of the others won’t give up local control for distant central control, either.
Sounds more a political, than practical, plan. Looks good on paper I guess and sounds “muscular,” one of the favorite leadership attributes these days.
Janet – at 14:01 It appears that the President’s plan outlines using the National Guard to control riots, looting, civil unrest, etc. At first I thought “yeah, right”, look what good it did in New Orleans.
The problem with NO was not with the Guard. It was that the State governer did not “legally permit” them in until it was too late and after things got out of hand and some areas became unaccessable. The guard is under control of the state and not the feds- until the state officials declare it otherwise.
Dennis - but what’s to prevent them from coming in too late again? If anything NOLA/Katrina demonstrated the complete inneptitude of fed/state/local governments and their inabilty to talk with one another or make decisions. I haven’t seen anything since Katrina that shows me that problem has been fixed, or even slightly improved. And may of the guard are in Iraq. A few 100 guardsmen perstate will not be enough to help out should TSHTF on a widespread basis.
I agree, lauraB; I see no reason to believe anything has changed to make the system actually work. The National Guard helping out here will be a moot point for some time to come. They aren’t here to be used for any purpose and it would take some time to get them back here.
lauraB – at 14:48
Yes, what it says to me that you need to have plans and act BEFORE things get bad. I doubt if the Nat’l Guard would be much help with the sick (see what happens now when just a few are taken to their countries best hospitals). Perhaps to they might slow the mobs but if they get out with the “mobs” then they will end up getting the same flu.
I can see them helping set up communication centers, water/food/ration distributions, enforcing quarantines, and such as that. However the problem is that if it is truly a pandemic (everywhere) then there is not enough Guard to go around - even if you pull everyone “home”. Just think about what percentage of Guard is in a typical city. You can have enough from a state for a few cities but not for an entire state. I think the best we can expect is just to slow down the spread so that the “load” at hospitals and work is spread out and perhaps buy enough time for some to receive a vaccine.
My guess is that there will be too few, too late, and too sick to do much. The bottom line remains - let each of US prepare and be prepared to help others.
Military solutions for social and public health problems are ineffective. Maybe the Feds should prepare people NOW with REAL information about what they should be doing and for HOW LONG.
Ceredwin – at 15:47 - They will get around to that right after they fix Social Security and Medicare….
Ceredwin is correct that the NG may well be deployed overseas and not available in all states. The Coast Guard did a lot of good in NOLA but the Guard couldn’t get in easily, as was observed above, and the conflict over NG control and the LA guard regiments in Iraq didn’t help. Hillbilly Bill nailed it at 15:49. Bill, maybe you should set your sights on the White House.
Regards to National Guard being called in. At my work place an upper level official with quite a nice job. Very nice person. Suddenly leaves the job to go back into the National Guard. When I asked does it have to do with bf. NO comment. And its not like he was leaving to go in the guard temporarily. He is actually leaving his job to go in The National Guard cause they called him. Something here i don’t get..
birdwatcher at 18:33 — Hmmm. I don’t exactly understand — he left his job to go work full time for the Guard because he anticipates the callup anyway? Forgive if I am dense but this is curious to me.
All I know is that he just told everyone he going to go back into the National Guard. He just got this job not to long ago. Now he is leaving. Seems strange to me. He got a really good paying job. High up in the coperate ladder
U.S. pays 90% of the training costs for the National Guard, so if the Pres says to Federalise them, it is going to happen. Problem is that many of the Guard and Reserves have already been called up and are overseas. S. Utah had one artillery battalion, and they are there. If something happens here, there will NOT be any Guard to call up except a dozen office pogues. Have not heard any Guard Bureau callups or anything for the Reserves, yet at least. As a retired Reserve, they have my number as well as the others. Believe me, when they do start calling up those in the retired or discharged catagories. it will be all over the news.
As regards maintaining civil order, etc., my guess is that the federal troops are going to maintain control of power generation and distribution, potable water treatment and distribution, and waste water treatment facilities FIRST. They may not have tamiflu, but good PPE goes a long way, and those too stupid to be taught will get weeded out pretty quickly.
People can live quite a while with water, power and sewers. As long as the power is on they can stay home and watch TV. As the epidemic rages and food runs short, they will be reluctant to risk the trip outside their home, especially since there will be a call in number for people who need food. They’ll call and get a case number, and they’ll wait a bit longer.
Hungry people who have working toilets and running water are likely to stay put when told that “food is on the way”. By the time that they realize there is a problem, if one develops, they will be weaker and less of a problem, and it takes several days to weeks for most Americans, obese as we are, to get to the verge of starvation. Food delivery will be the second tier issue, and the government will try to buy time.
Ultimately, what will determine the outcome is whether we can keep the lights on, the water running, the toilets working, and at least some basic food coming into the cities. It all will depend on how severe the H2H bug is.
Nobody has told me this but that’s my best guess
LMWatBullRun: Sounds like a good guess, but I don’t know whether it will be by default or design. If the public is oblivious now, they will believe the necessary lies later. It will be interesting to see if the networks are given free reign, or if the information they disperse will be tightly controlled. One untoward remark by a network anchor could set off a nationwide riot.
The Stafford Act allows Congress to use federal troops for disaster relief operations, but only if a state governor requests such assistance (42 USC §§ 5121 et seq. ). Using federal troops deployed under this act to perform law enforcement activities is a violation of the federal 1878 Posse Comitatus Act.
3L120 – at 21:01″so if the Pres says to Federalise them..” It is NOT the Pres. call on their use.
Yes, most state will request federal troops. However there will always be some governors like that in Louisiana that will be very slow to allow them to be used in their states.
Sounds good LMW. I feel very much the same way. I hear reference to military response being inadequate,scary, etc. on some of the other threads and it bothers me. The basic mission of the military is to fight the bad guys. Since they are a large group of able bodied, on-hand, well trained people that can be mobilized if need be, they are sometimes put into these ‘other situations’. If it happened soon, they would be helpless. Given some time, they could be ready to ‘save the day’. Who knows… I think it’s important to remember that they (any branch of the military/government) are a lot like us: they are all trying to prep. Some are more adept than others, some faster, some richer, some smarter and some a lot further along than others. I know one thing, once the military got into NO, they made huge differences. I think the same will hold true during any crisis.
LMWatBullRun – at 22:08 “As regards maintaining civil order, etc., my guess is that the federal troops are going to maintain control of power generation and distribution, potable water treatment and distribution, and waste water treatment facilities FIRST.”
Unfortunately, this will probably not be the case. Practical matter of too many utilities, too few troops, especially troops trained such as to make any difference in the operation of these systems. Movement of essential supplies for the utilities, yea probably. Guarding the larger facilities, probably.
We are going to be on our own, just like Secretary Levitt and company has said. The problem is too big for federal government to handle. Only local government has a chance to keep things going. The federal government will fill in a chink here and a chink there. Otherwise we are on our own until the first wave has died down.
Okieman – at 22:42 “we are on our own until the first wave has died down”
“died down” - nice use of terms….
Are there any Guard units left still in the US? I get the feeling they’ve all been mobilized and are in the Middle East.
Grace… There are allot of Guard Units still in the US. Each state has a different rotation. Very few are gone in my state now. You should be able to contact you militar division in your state and figure out very quickly who is gone.
A lot of the Guard from WV is in Iraq right now. Our guys get to see a lot of action because most of them are damn good with a rifle.
Our Guard Units have returned. But their equipment has not. It stayed in Iraq. Now we are borrowing from another state just for day to day duties.
DennisC – at 00:16
Not intentional, but fitting I guess. Was thinking of a wildfire as it runs out of fuel. “Settled down” might have been “more better”
OK…let me rephrase that. After N.O., no state governor is going to refuse the ‘request’ by the President to bring Guard troops into the active Army. Besides, then Uncle Sam gets to pay everything connected with them.
However, Guard are mostly combat arms troops, while the specialists are in the Reserves, (USMC, USA, USN, USAF and USCG) which are under Federal control and can be immediately called up if needed. In many cases, these are the military we need first, as they are the medical, supply, and transportation units in the Army and all sorts of units in the other branches.
Let’s just hope that Tamiflu will work as a preventative, as well as a treatment, or all of the “plans” for National Guard, etc. won’t matter much. IMO. I’m definitley reserving judgement on EVERYTHING, until after a pandemic begins. You remember the old saying, “The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry.”
Yes, Snowhound, let’s pray that they have plenty of Tamiflu and BIG GUNS! Could make a difference from what we saw in New Orleans in the first few days. Certainly not the answer but may cut down on those that think they can take whatever they want. Let them deal with the National Guard and then deal with us preppers with guns - they may think twice.
After reading the reports out of Vietnam that using Tamiflu as a preventative leads to resistant strains, I just get angry when I still hear people talk about using it as a preventative. It’s like they want to make my personal stock of Tamiflu useless.
I think it was in the early sixties that you could see French troops with some very lethal weapons walking around Paris. They commanded respect. I recall foing to West Point to hear the Messiah sung after 9–11. Some pretty grim faced yound West Point soldiers, Or were they National guard where patrolling the areas around the Chapel and all roads leading in. I wouldn’t have wanted to run afoul of them.
I’m not sure what kind of response people think they are going to get from the Guard. My local unit is the 156th signal battalion. they are Phone guys for the 177th Military Police brigade. Michigan is broke as a state. we don’t have the funding to fix the pot holes. I don’t know for sure, but would hazzard to bet that the Phone guys havent fired their weapons in a while, and probably havent been through MOUNT training. I think their role would be limited at best
My brother, who is in the Guard and recently returned from a tour to Iraq, said that the Guard is expected to be available in the event of a pandemic, mostly to relieve local sherrifs/highway patrol/etc and provide security for convoys and things. And he said there is no plan to give the guard tamiflu or any other drug—they are considered ‘disposable’ and are there to take the hit to protect the Army, who will isolate themselves in bases until the wave goes through, then come out to take their places. He has absolutely no illusions about surviving a pandemic, and expects to go out in the first wave.
Guard members are going to get sick at the same rate and on the same schedule as everybody else, and for the same reasons. This isn’t going to work.
Yeah, I know. So does he. Sigh.
Janet - “Yes, Snowhound, let’s pray that they have plenty of Tamiflu and BIG GUNS! Could make a difference from what we saw in New Orleans in the first few days. Certainly not the answer but may cut down on those that think they can take whatever they want. Let them deal with the National Guard and then deal with us preppers with guns - they may think twice.”
This kind of comment fills me with despair. To think pandemic’s answer is in guns. What have we become when we hope the feds, who we believe can’t do a damn thing to prevent starvation, can still show up in force to gun down desperate people.
Scaredy,
If we truly going to get through a pandemic, we will do it by cooperating, not by the end of a gun.
My back ground - I served for 20 years in USMC and 8 years in law enforcement here in Florida. Florida and 17 other states have self protection laws in place. ANY WHERE ELSE YOU BREAK THE LAW PROTECTING YOUR SELF, FAMILY OR HOME BY USING A GUN! So if you can move. Aftem all the time and experience helping people in disaster here in the USA and in Asia all I can say is rule one applies at all times.
What is Rule one?
Rule One He who has the gun and is willing to use it makes the rules (power).
Sorry, I disagree Scaredy….in any panic situation, you want someone in CONTROL. Otherwise, it is left to mayhem which results in injury to innocent people. If a pandemic hits, we need the National Guard and any other law enforcement personnel out there and visible. Having a gun as a law enforecement or military does not mean they use the gun. They use the gun only when they need to subdue someone who is acting outside of the law.
No one was implying or suggesting that they come in with guns blasting and hurt or kill innocent people. That is ridiculous. But, do you honestly believe half of what happened in New Orleans would have happened had their been armed personnel or guard standing about? Not a prayer. People were robbed and mugged and assaulted because there was no one in control of the situation.
Criminals or criminal acting people have learned to respect law enforcement with a gun. It is like having a dog with big teeth. Very rarely does the dog ever have to use them - those that are behaving outside of the law just happen to know that they are there.
I doubt that there are enough troops or police officers available to maintain civil order, especially in large metro areas. I think that the Federal strategy will be to keep the lid on as long as possible, by keeping power, phone, water and wastewater systems up.
Specialist troops such as engineering or communications units will be able to do that duty, and unlike civilians can be ordered to do so.
On another note, this pandemic will not be survived by use of drugs, it will be survived by superior personal hygiene, by use of good PPE, and by early SIP/quarantine/curfews.
I think this was discussed before, but I got to thinking the other day, what do we do if someone official (like National Guard) comes to our door to provide relief to us. Do we say, “We’re good - don’t need your help”? which would basically tip off that person that you’ve got stores of supplies, do we accept the help just to disguise that fact even though it would be wrong to take help when you don’t need it.
I worry about this. This happened with Katrina where people were forced to do things that they did not want to do in the name of “relief”.
The basic strategy is to keep the masses fed, keep them watered, keep the power and TVs on, and not to bother them otherwise. There will not be resources available to provide support for everyone.
Again, IMO a full prep includes the ability to defend what you have, but if someone comes by, my response will be no response. If nobody’s home then if they are official, they’ll move on. If they try to break in, the pigs get a feast…
NOLA was a small area, inundated by both water and Federal response; active duty, NG and Reserve. If it gets to the point of declaring martial law, the boots are going to be a lot thinner on the ground, even if all troops are withdrawn to CONUS. Again, this is all hypothetical, but most will be deployed to the big cities. Here in Utah, I imagine the problems in the SLC area will clean out the rest of the state’s Guard and Reserve units, as well as Hill AFB. The S. Utah artillery bn will be gone soon as the governor/president say so. Most of us will be on out own.
Police-wise, each community may well find its officers/deputies guarding City Hall and hospitals rather than doing routine patrol. Neighbor problems will be handled by neighbors.
In each case, if there is a pandemic, numbers will be severely impacted and a 50 man police force or 500 man battalion will probably be at 1/3–1/2 strength. Just as in NO, members will be thinking of their families (and military reserve components tend to be older and married) instead of the Governor’s Mansion. Better count on providing your own protection.
“If we truly going to get through a pandemic, we will do it by cooperating, not by the end of a gun.”
I so very much wish that statement were true. If this gets as bad as quite a lot of folks think it may, and as much as I hate to say it, the end of a gun may be your only hope, even if we are able to provide for one another in small groups / tribes or whatever.
How do you plan on cooperating? And with whom? The idea of cooperating is a really wonderful idea but can you eat it, drink it? Will it keep you warm? Will it keep you safe?
At any given time we have 1/3 of our guard in the war zone, 1/3 either getting ready to go or rotating back and 1/3 at home trying to recover from their last deployment. Just how many of these folks will be ready to hit the streets and guard what? The NG has been doing a fantastic job but right now they KNOW that their families are being taken care of as they risk life and limb overseas. These troops KNOW that the wife / husband / children left behind can get the food, medical help or what ever else they need for their children.
Now a totally different issue is when TSHTF, just who will be taking care of those families back home? How will they get the care they need? Does anyone really think that these young troops have the finances to really prep?
Working the aftermath of a hurricane does not hold a candle to what they will be asked to face in a pandemic. These brave young men and women will know that if they do go as ordered that they, and most likely their families, will die.
Knowing that there is no vaccine just how many of us will make that sacrifice? Who will leave their families unprotected to go guard a food storage facility? Or a Government building? Or a train station? a hospital? knowing that you will not be protected from this bug.
This is just me sounding off a little as after reading this thread it occurred to me that there will be no NG coming to save us. There are just not that many troops…
Each one of us must prep to the fullest extent possible; we must protect what we have if we want to come out on the other side of this thing.
What I see every day in our Nations Capitol reinforces the fact that the end of a gun just may be the only way to survive.
One sign of impending doom may be a rapid return of military forces back stateside from Iraq and other locales. If we read of a sudden peace initiative being signed so troops can be brought home, make those last minute purchases!
I hadn’t even thought of that.
Been to an emergancy room lately? Read anything about our failing healthcare system due to oh, people swarming in and not paying their bills? Think it’s bad now, God have mercy on us if this pandemic does hit. Taxpaying citizens, who put into a system that set us apart world wide (1st part of John Barry’s book, The Great Influenza), would overwhelm the system… but it is already overwhelmed.
A scanty few thousand NG will be on the southern border for a couple years, don’t worry. Meanwhile, politicians on both sides of the isle are posturing shile Rome burns.
Oh Lord, kumbaya.
I don’t see there being a lot of civil disorder, unless we are forced into drastic measures like cordon sanitaire. Recalling Barry - the cities were like ghost towns. The fear of the flu kept most people indoors. On the other hand, imposing a cordon sanitaire unless absolutely necessary (and most experts think it won’t work anyway) could be a trigger for disturbances when there otherwise wouldn’t be one.
I see the NG being used to supplement civilian law enforcement in areas where there is a lot of absenteeism due to illness or the threat thereof. They may also be used to reinforce supply chains for essentials like food and water where the utility and transportation infrastructure is broken. They may also be deployed to critical infrastructure/key resources to protect them against some terrorist group that might want to take advantage of a panflu situation.
The Sarge – at 19:26 if your talking about Mayberry USA maybe, but from what I can tell, many of our larger cities are not to far from mayhem on any given day. As posted above the resources (FD, PD, utility Co.s and the rest of the infrastructure) have been working with shrinking budgets for years. They are designed to handle the average days load not a city wide ongoing disaster with reduced manpower.
From major events that I have experienced at ground zero and from other recent tradgedies that have unfolded on the media, I’m not impressed. These disasters very clearly demonstrate the limitations of our federal disaster response. They have been local or regional incidents, tiny, compared to a coast to coast worst case panflu senario.
From what I have read, enforced quarantines have been one of the first and only forms of “treatment” when dealing with a novel virulent disease that has no treatment. Without a treatment, containment/isolation is the only thing that DOES work. In this country, the quaratine boundries have often been set around very distinct politically, ethnically and economically drawn lines (ie neighborhoods/cities). Add to that the elements of opportunists that see these situations as the perfect time to “express” themselves and …
I, for one, do not plan to put myself in a position where I am dependent on this government, for anything. I see those people on the news every night (nine months later) wondering where there government is.
MAV -
Point taken. Please consider though that isolation/quarantine is only going to be effective as a disease control measure if the population buys into it as being in their best interest. This is the role of the risk communicators and the success of their efforts will be the determinants. And, we must be able to sustain ourselves through a quarantine, and provide essentials to the quarantined population. Otherwise, we invite people (who can be very creative) to circumvent it at best, and armed insurrection at worst.
Your thought on being prepared to maintain without government intervention is absolutely correct. Everyone who can, should. This lessens the overall human toll and demands on the government resources that you correctly point out are limited (and I are one!)
Sarge-
I’d like to think you were right, but I doubt that there won’t be civil disorder. Plans I have seen assume it will happen. This virus will arrive unannounced from Africa or China or Indonesia and nobody will know that it came on the plane. It will be so widely disseminated that the announcement of the index cases will simply be the opening bell. The virus will be spread explosively from airport security people and other airport support staff into crowded urban areas. And those infected will infect others. We’ll have tens of thousands infected before the first case shows.
Then what? The first cases probably won’t get much attention from the folks in the inner city. At first. But once they start to get sick, and die in 12 hours, by the hundreds, Raw horror and sheer PANIC will ensue. The fact that they were infected days before they got sick won’t make any difference. The fact that they really are better off staying inside their pads hoping they weren’t infecfted won’t be beleived, because a) the govt has no credibility, and b) people stying inside will still get sick and die. When the grim reaper starts his harvest in the cities, God help us. The metro areas will foam like a Cajun shrimp boil. Those people are going to want OUT. The folks in the country are going to want to keep them IN. The Guard will be in between.
If we are lucky, the tanks and armored cars on the streets, the shoot on sight curfews, and the road blocks will work. Banning of gasoline sales might help. Any lesser measures will not have a prayer of working to keep the lid on; they won’t intimidate enough people. If we can’t keep the city folks in the city…… you’ll have sick and dying urban refugees scattered all over the place. In any case, my expectation is that being in a large city is the wrong place to be.
You are right about being self reliant. The folks that make it through this crisis will be largely the self-reliant folks. Like us!
Just some thoughts from across the ocean, trying to relate from Australia’s circumstances to yours in the USA. I mean well, but admit my vast ignorance. So please clear space to ROTF and LYAO! No offense meant or I hope taken!
Government’s first priority will be the same as yours: SELF PRESERVATION. Like most of you, most governmental entities will use LETHAL ARMED FORCE if they are acutely threatened.
Operationally, that will mean SECURING their bases, both in the USA and overseas. They will also need to secure their very local supplies of electricity, water and sewage and, I should guess, of food supplies in warehouses and meat and produce storehouses.
Securing their lines of command and communication obviously will mean protection of the principal arms of government, in centres like Washington, DC, most notably. Including some measure of electricity, etc, to permit functioning of those.
Google the numbers of naval, air and land bases of the US armed forces, and consider the numbers of active, reserve and National Guard troops required to secure their perimeters, as well as the core agencies of central government, and then…
…and then consider the CHANCES of seeing a soldier in front of the bank, the pharmacy, the local hospital…in your city
Merely securing the nuclear electric power stations, the ICBM sites, Oak Ridge, Hanford, Los Alamos, on and on… Think.
Prepare to survive without ANY help from the central or local entities. They have not merely warned you, they have almost BEGGED you to heed their words.
< Yes. And God help Australia, for these same reasons. >
Nikolai -
Thank you, your thoughts have given me the final bit that I needed to sort through my impression of the subject. You are correct that critical infrastructure and key resources will be priorities for protection, and this includes food distribution, utlities, medical facilities and caches (some of the others you mention though, such as nuclear facilities have pretty robust security as a normal matter of course and wouldn’t be a big additional drain). I am involved in plans for just this. We cannot allow these services and resources to be looted, hijacked, destroyed or disrupted.
Your other point is also correct - that the demand for resources could easily outstrip supply. This brings us to the conundrum of the chronically dependent classes who are reliant on government services for virtually everything, from housing to food and medical care on a good day. When the bad day happens, e.g. Hurricane Katrina, these folks are in the worst way. Again with Katrina - the storm absolutely devastated an area of some 90,000 square miles - roughly the size of Great Britain, no? Yet nearly all of the news coverage then and since has focused on perhaps 20 square miles - the area around the Superdome in New Orleans, 2 100′s of a percent of the disaster area. Let us set aside for the moment all of the arguments that might be made about various biases that might cause virtually all of the media coverage to focus on this small place, and presume that the storms impact on the population was worse there then elsewhere. Why is this?
It is because there was a high percentage of the population there who were dependent of government for their basic needs on a good day - a tenuous existence in the best of times. This was a very bad day, and government was decidedly unequal to the task. These folks had no fall-back position, and days of misery followed. Compound this with the unfortunate sociological fact that dependent classes are often disproportionately afflicted by bipedal predators - who added to the misery and, in some cases thwarted relief and rescue efforts (medical evacuations by helicopters from the Superdome were halted at least once due to reports of gunfire, other examples exist).
Our humanity, I hope, won’t permit us to leave these folks to whatever fate awaits. They will receive their share, and perhaps more, of government-provided assistance. The pool of resources though has limits. The greater the demand on it, the less there is on a per capita basis for the population as a whole. The take-away here is that there won’t be enough government-provided resources to take of everybody, so probably it won’t take care of anybody, having been diluted below the point of effectiveness. I don’t see us triaging populations with any higher reasoning than was apparently applied in Katrina - i.e. whatever the most disturbing or hysterical news report at the top of the hour. So, by all means prepare yourselves, as our grandparents and great-grandparents did, for the inevitable ‘rainy day’ - whether it be tropical cyclones, earthquake, blackout or panflu.
All that having been said - even in New Orleans after Katrina there was comparatively little actual civil disturbance. Looting, yes; arson, yes; sniping, yes - all of that occurred. But how much compared to say Watts or Detroit in the 60′s, or South Central LA after the Rodney King incident? The news coverage of the alleged criminal atrocities was later proven to be overblown. This was a humanitarian crisis, not civil war. I struggle to find examples anywhere of huge riotous disturbances in the midst or wake of natural disaster - the disaster simply drains the energy away from too large a part of the population who are suddenly reduced to a struggle for survival. They don’t have the mental or physical energy for insurrection. I might add this is why dictactors have always preferred to keep their populations on the knife-edge of famine - they are far easier to control. Whether naturally or intentionally inflicted, this precludes mass uprisings. Ergo, my estimation that civil disorder will not be the prevailing feature of a panflu outbreak stands. I pray to God that my little sociological theory never gets put to the test.
I hope all is and remains well for you and yours Down Under!
I’m surprised no one has posted this thought…so I guess I will. We are already seeing the movement of the National Guard… 6000 to the Mexican Border… I believe the true reason the troops were moved is so the border can be closed and protected at a moments notice. It’s all in place…Rather than tell the public the True reason they can put the blame on the Immigration Issue….Our government is lining up their chess pieces, they just haven’t told us we were all in the game.
Former lurker -
You may be right, but my experience with and in government has taught me the principle of parsimony in looking at what government does and why. In this case, I think it is nothing more than a reaction to the rapidly developing political firestorm over the failure to conduct any sort of rational, coherent border policy, which issue has finally reached a head. Grand strategy is a game that no one in our government seems to play well.
A former Lurker… I’ve been thinking the same thing. Could be to there to close the borders if needed, or have them in place in case of a terror attacks to go into cities in the aftermath. We won’t know until after the fact.
It isn’t just the borders. If you read the relevant executive orders referenced in the flu plan, what you see is that the Federal authority has the power (or thinks it does) to close down travel ANYWHERE once a “threat” has been determined to exist.
Experience tells me that governments rarely claim power that they don’t use. My expectation is that once a pandemic occurs, that the Feds will forbid state-to-state travel. They have the authority to “federalize” local law enforcement, and my guess is that we’ll see all local law enforcement federalized and required to shut down travel.
Expect to see gas stations closed with no deliveries permitted. The Guard will protect key infrastructure, not populations
Even it they try, they could not close the unoffical borders, nor stop people from traveling inside the US. Too many back roads and I am not sure they would even try. Too many other needs for the troops and police than manning roadblocks. I do see them stoping international air travel to US. but may be too late.
I really do not picture quarantines because by the time they figure out it is here, it will be all over the US because of the travel that happened the prior weeks by infected people.
Sarge at 8:11 I believe you have expressed a little known truth. Starving people, people truly struggling to survive, don’t have the energy for anything but getting by. They tend not to fight. I worry about all the people who think the way to survive a pandemic that kills is to stockpile weapons that kill. It’s wasted effort. The focus should be on ways to keep people alive. In a pandemic, there will be plenty of death for everyone. Our distant forebearers survived by banding together to help one another. If you want to survive the pandemic, prepare to help your neighbors. Set aside some extra preps for the ones that can’t/won’t prepare. The emphasis should be on how to GIVE necessities to your neighbors, not KEEP them for yourself. They will then be able to help you in ways that you cannot now imagine. You can’t think of everything yourself. You can’t stock every need yourself. But together, as a group, we can come a lot closer to “self”-sufficiency. After all, isn’t that what we are doing here?
In most areas gasoline supplies, like food, is delivered on an almost daily basis. Most people travel around with less than a tank of gas and only fill up when the Low Fuel light comes on. At first, IMO, people will stay around home, sure the gov’t will save them. After a week when the peanut butter runs out, they will come to the realization they are on their own and they MAY try to escape. But with only a few gallons they won’t get far.
Same will be true of inner cities and other gang areas. Except that the lack of law enforcement if officers are ill will give them a chance to riot and loot. It does not take much of an excuse for that to happen. Took place when the Lakers won as easily as when Rodney was convicted. And if looting, sniping and arson are not civil unrest, what is?
3/120 -
Looting, sniping and arson are civil unrest - but there’s a matter of scale. The Laker’s winning, Rodney King - frankly those disturbances were primarily the actions of well fed and healthy folks. It takes energy to do all that hooping, hollering, looting and burning. I’ve been in the midst of a couple of doozies - as one of the guys all dressed alike with the shotguns, shields and tear gas. Eventually, the opposition gets tired. The food is all eaten, the booze drank, the illicit pharmaceuticals smoked. That’s about 72–96 hours into it at best. We still have weeks of the pandemic wave to go.
Plus, those who perpetrate civil unrest almost invariably do it right where they live - destroying what is already likely a fragile physical, economic and social infrastructure. That does nothing but accelerate the toll of a disease epidemic, further weakening the population in question. True, grim, sweating, shaking, paralyzing terror takes hold, IMO.
Also IMO, the single greatest risk factor for unrest is the actual or perceived unequal distribution of medical aid and other assistance. This may be particularly acute in the segment of the population that is chronically dependent on government assistance as a matter of course. It is very difficult at best to change folks’ perception that they are being treated unfairly, especially if that is their starting point. What we can do is everything in our power to keep the emergency aid flowing and not allow it be dissipated or deflected by criminal depradation. Nonetheless, I still don’t believe that civil unrest will be the society-breaking feature of an Old Testament-style pandemic. It will be the turning inward, away from community and social structures and institutions that are the bedrock, and toward Darwinian, feral, clanish, selfish behavior that will take years to overcome.
Wow, interesting conversation. I think I get all the points, but have to flow with what Gary said in order to stay sane. Stockpile what supports life, not death, and you will have something of use to yours and those around you. Also, I have to admit I may have started the talk about not trusting the National Guard, and to some degree I regret it. I still think we should all get our communities to do as much as they can to survive, but also communicate to TPTB (is that how you say it?) ways in which they might be helpful, or tactful ways for them to approach a hurting city, etc. If help comes, we should be thankful. Just don’t hold our breath for it.
Lorelle,
As I re-read my posts, I can see where they might be perceived as being negative toward preppers. I don’t mean it so at all. Like they say on the airplane, put on your own oxygen mask before helping someone else. But, by all means, once you and yours are safe, do whatever you can to help your neighbors!
A former Lurker - at 08:30
You may have a point. I think it’s more likely a political move - have the troops on the border before the ‘06 elections so as to capitalize at the polls in Nov. But it could easily serve both purposes. Hmmm…
OT and on a lighter note, while we are otherwise prepared, doubt anyone would want to mess with our property and possessions once they got an earful of our 12-pound miniature dachshund - as long as she was kept out of sight :o
I can’t worry about prepping for my neighbors. I have a large family of over 20 people to worry about. My children are doing what they can, but there is no way they can prep for this for their families. I can try to convince my commnunity to become prepared. But, my family is my primary concern. I have 13 grandchildren and an 85 year old mother that I have to make sure are taken care of. My family is doing everything we can to take care of each other. That is our priority. We have sat down together and decided who could do what. We have a couple of close friends who have nobody but themselves to worry about. They will come help if needs be.
I have said this before, and will say it again… our healthcare system is already taxed (by that I mean strained) to the max. It is enormously impacted by the swarm of illegals tapping into it. If this pandemic hits, the citizens of this country alone would “strain” it. But, it is already strained. We didn’t have that in 1918. It is a very different situation for that reason alone. We got a taste of chaos and bad planning/preparation last hurricane season. If you consider the great depression, when Americans were out of work by the droves, people survived in dire situations. Now, you have to couple the potential of massive unemployment of citizens plus illegals. This has the potential of being chaotic beyond anything that we have seen. In fact, my family physician is having “Dr. Zhivago” nightmares (literally.) Of being hauled off. When I asked him about preparing, he told me to prepare for chaos. And he was as serious as cancer.
Nikolai---Sydney – at 23:19
The US has about 2 million active and reserve troops. After securing bases and ships worldwide along with Oak Ridge, Pentagon, etc. we might be lucky to have maybe 5,000 - 10,000 on average per state. Those would probably be used to secure power plants, power control centers, water works. I don’t envision one single gaurd available for keeping civil unrest at bay or bringing me a jug of water.
JJJ-
Attempts will be made to reduce civil unrest in the perimeters of the power seats, but not likely in our neighborhoods.
EnoughAlready - at 04:00
So depressing but so true.
I lived thru 2 riots and several earthquacks in LA Ca. I then moved to Florida and got to experience the last 12 years of hurricane seasons.
People who survive this; are those who take preparing as a normal way of living. Example: If you move to Florida no one will look at you differently if you prepare and stock pile emergency goods.
We use our National Guard every year. They help “all neighborhoods” with water, medical, rescue, and ice deliveries. They have really learned how to do it the right way. We only have a few thousand assigned here in Florida and alot of them are in Iraq now. They get the job done!!! AND we don’t go screaming to the press or any one else about Government involvement (New Orleans). We’er just glad they are there to help!
EnoughAlready Your right as rain. Nobody realises how tenous the HC system is in this country. A pandemic will collapse it. Im having the same nightmares as your family doc. Ive planned ahead the first wiff i get off to my daughters in another state I go. I have a new grandson I intend on keeping alive. He will have at least a semblance of healthcare. Fortunatly his Mom and Dad are prepping too
Richard in FL, I have to disagree with you on: “Example: If you move to Florida no one will look at you differently if you prepare and stock pile emergency goods.”
I live in FL and have been prepping now for at least 3–4 months. On many of my two basket shopping trips to Wal-Mart, we have gotten the stares, questions, etc. from complete strangers. I don’t ever come out and tell them I’m prepping for bird flu, just that we are getting ready for hurricane season. You should see some peoples expresions and one lady rolled her eyes at us!
So in my experience, yes, people do look at you differently. Personally, I don’t care… I just keep on with my prepping. It is funny though than in a state that gets hit every year by hurricanes that some people still do not do anything to prepare. They’ll just wait until 24–48 hours before and then decide to go Publix and fight over the picked over selection.
AN old saw has it that there are three kinds of people-
Those who make things happen;
those who watch things happen;
and those who wonder what the hell is happening!
Birdie74, the folks you ran into are in either category 2 or 3.
Have you been watching the news of late. It seems that the states cannot get 6000 troops for border security. They just don’t have the number of troops any more.
If the federals and states are expecting to use the national guard for support duties for police, utilities, transportation of goods, and medical; what are they going to due to make up the numbers needed, not to mention that some of the guard will become sick too say (30%)…….
So should the national guard be expected to support the states? (YES) But not at the current level expected remember (30%) who will be sick at any one time and there is no backup.
So should larger cities or rural areas get what support is available? Since the leaders come from large cities then expect that rural areas will be left on their own.
Janet – at 14:01 Assuming that our National Guard would be the first ones to receive a vaccine or Tamiflu, enabling most of them to report for duty, do you think it might be possible for them to maintain order and control over the one year period???
No, considering most of them are in Iraq. Our state was barely able to scrounge up enough guard to carry out evacuations and rescues during severe flooding in May so many are gone.
RICHARD FL – at 18:35 “then expect that rural areas will be left on their own.”
thank you God!!!!
And I expect that by and large the rural areas don’t want what will be coming out of the cities after this pandemic starts. <wry grin>
It sems the Bush admin’s solution to everything is military in nature. Why don’t I trust these people? HMMMM. maybe , because they’re proven themselves to less then honest? If the Nat’l guard is called in to quell riots so be it, but I doubt riots or looting will be much of an issue. Read, William Defoe’s The Plague Yrs. Public order wasn’t an issue because people were to busy tending the sick and dying to kill each other. I think most people will hide out instead of trying to do something in an infected mob.
glennk, There were not millions of gang members in 1918. We here in the US have a very different population now. Who knows what will happen.
LMWatBullRun – at 18:50 LOL We got one highway in and one highway out, a few dirt county roads that I’m thinkin the neighboring property owners will be shutting down in a hurry if there is anything other than local traffic.
I think 30% of the adult male residents here are CWP holders and the LE I know or have talked with are ALL for it and are very active in civiian training and the local club.
I would be glad if the Gaurd helped out in the cities.
MAV,
I know what it means, but would you please add CWP to the Forum Shorthand page?
Roman: I don’t disagree on the who knows what will happen. But, don’t kid yourself that in 1918 there weren’t lot’s of bad actors out here. Remember , that for no other reason then the color of their skin many citizens were brutally lynched in this country. Oh, and by people who were nice church going smile in your face killers the rest of the week. So, the gangs might turn out to be the least of our problems.
Melanie, ok, I tried …not sure if I did it right
I’ll be more than happy to help ya out with that, MAV.
BB,
That’s the Wiki way, thanks for helping since you are better at this than I am!
I thinks it just worked. probably your help BB thanks
All done…LOL!! I think MAV and I stepped all over each other in there!!
I feel like I just operated on the Wiki, never seen that before. Glad I wasn’t alone. LOL
So what jobs will the guard do? I think they will be used just like after a hurricane - rescue, medical transport, transport of goods (Food, Water, and Medical), and security. I hope or …… Local governments may put restrictions on travel, medical treatment, use of utilities, and will be backed by the guard……. They may require us to take people in who we do not know nor want. Giving shelter by order of the government……
So what else will happen? During and just before the first wave. When everyone understands what we know about BF.
Time to think and explore (What If)
I would expect quarantine enforcement duties. I am thinking that will be the overwhelming focus for limiting transmission.
MAV in Colorado – at 12:32 You have to think numbers …..
You need to plan for a minimum squad 14 + to handle 3 post to stop traffic on one street, that is 24/7. Now count how many streets leave a city and you will find that you need a division to hold all the people in side. The USA currently has 22 Army and 4 US Marine Corps divisions.
So no commitments outside of the USA; bring home all troops; and THEN you MAYBE can hold 20 large cities. POP 2 Million +
How about questions?
How many cities in USA have 2 million in population? How about 2–5 million? How about over 5 million?
We do not have enough troops to do the job. Remember there is no fix, pill, or shot to stop Bird Flu. So lets say 20% will be down with the flu at any one time.
You have now lost 5.2 divisions worth of troops.
This does not include the entire Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard or US Marine Air Wings. which makes up 68% of DOD manpower. They are not trained to do this type of job - except certain job titles like - Military police, Security, medical, etc.
So no enforecment of quarantines will work for a large city. then what????????
RICHARD FL GYSGT USMC RETIRED
To change a little the way this group drifting off the subject…
Yesterday I a placed a discussion item in general discussion on MYSPACE.COM it received alot of attention as if people wanted information about BF. So I mentioned this forum……
The National Guard in Florida is split between hurricane duty and IRAQ. On 1 June each year the guard is placed in standby mode for the season of hurricanes. A wize step for this state. Now we have about 1/3 of the Guard in IRAQ, 1/3 getting ready to go and the rest to handle the state required standby for the season. They are stretched with alot of openings for new members. But not many people are joining the guard right now due to IRAQ. So what can the government do? Draft……. It may come to that if the flu hits and we have the expected 30% casualities they would need a fresh supply of troops.
QUESTION:
If the flu hits and our casulities are bad (30=50%). Should the Government introduce a National Service Draft…………..?
To change a little the way this group drifting off the subject…
Yesterday I a placed a discussion item in general discussion on MYSPACE.COM it received alot of attention as if people wanted information about BF. So I mentioned this forum……
The National Guard in Florida is split between hurricane duty and IRAQ. On 1 June each year the guard is placed in standby mode for the season of hurricanes. A wize step for this state. Now we have about 1/3 of the Guard in IRAQ, 1/3 getting ready to go and the rest to handle the state required standby for the season. They are stretched with alot of openings for new members. But not many people are joining the guard right now due to IRAQ. So what can the government do? Draft……. It may come to that if the flu hits and we have the expected 30% casualities they would need a fresh supply of troops.
QUESTION:
If the flu hits and our casulities are bad (30=50%). Should the Government introduce a National Service Draft…………..?
Who could they draft? Everyone will be busy just trying to survive/recover. If the young are hit the hardest, there’s another drain on the draft pool.
RICHARD FL – at 22:09 I totally agree that they will be ineffective due to the scope of the problem. That doesn’t mean they won’t be deployed I don’t think.
National Service Draft is an interesting thought but after the ntl. news last night I’m doubtful. (they ran a story where a huge # were not getting their GI bill educational grants continued as agreed. The story highlighted vets dropping out of school programs and taking out personal loans to continue their educations. Not good PR. Even worse situation for the vets.
I expect the Nat’l guard might be used to protect certain Gov’t bldgs. and bases and the Hospitals that’s about it. Maybe some transport hubs for trains and shipping. Sick and dying people are not a threat. Hungry, angry people on the other hand are a problem. When people realize that their Gov’t has stockpiled meds. but only enough for the elite and special workers while their own families have been left to die that’s when TSWHTF.
I went through the draft already, during Nam, and I’ll be damned if I’m going to do it again. Let em try and catch me.
I had a recruiter show up at my door a few weeks ago looking for my son, says he signed up to get info and was interested. Me and the guy had an intersting discussion, he was abit miffed with me when I wouldn’t give him my sons phone number or address where he lived now. My son hasn’t lived with me for just about two years now. My son also has severe asthma, told the guy I didn’t think my son would be interested but i would give him the flyer and biz card.
Gave my son the info, he tossed it, they tried to recruit him back in high school and he told them no then.
My daughters boyfriend is 16, they (military in general) have been working on getting him hyped up to enlist. This boy has a deformed heart and has asthma. I didn’t think they wanted people with severe health problems?
MAV in Colorado – at 17:16 The VA’s problem is that congress sets the amount of money they can spend. So when you have medical, education,and housing of Vets involved it can eat up the budget fast. This year alone more Vets have been turned away for medical treatment just because of the lack of money. How do I know I”m 50% disabled and have been served by the VA for 13 years.
The National Guard will do what it can. A national service draft does not mean all go to the military but to medical, police, security, fire rescue and emergency management. These areas take 12–15 weeks training, so that (19–24) YEARS OLD may provide service to their country when we need it most. This draft would include all citizens and very few exemptions.
I served in Nam 72 until we left in April 75. Was drafted….. #102
I take many surveys, test products, and just last week I took 5 surveys for the army,etc. The one thing I didn’t like is the age they were wanting to target (below 15). I think very soon there is going to be a major push for kids to join- based on the questions I was asked.
When we get to the point of drafting beardless boys and grey haired old men, we will be in the last days of the empire. That’s what they found in the trenches at Vicksburg. And, that’s what they found in the bunkers around Berlin.
It’ll never happen. That’s just too much.
DebP,
The military is trying to tune up their marketing. The calls you received were not about a draft—that won’t fly today—but they want to shape the attitudes of mid-adolescent males and their mothers. Those are the people who determine if a kid joins the military.
Melanie, I agree, those were exactly the type of questions I was asked. All the way down to would your son feel supported by his family if he joined, to what product/sport they should sponser to get better “name recongnition”.
Bingo, DebP.
If order is to be maintained, it will be done by us, by the people. The Guard and the military won’t have the ability to do the job, best intentions notwithstanding. The problem is that there is no social cohesion in the big cities
LMWatBullRun – at 20:39 I agree but, because I lived in LA for 12 years the social cohesion you speak about has one name (power). New Orleans is a great example of how step by step a city falls apart. It did not take weeks, months, or years just days. When the police disappeared the gangs took the power and ruled until the Guard/police returned. It will happen to any city in the same situation.
If the police/guard go away, something will take its place (GANGS).
Gangs only thrive when there is no resolute organization of law-abiding folks. They used to call such things the militia, but that is a term that has been smeared by the MSM.
Whatever you call it, such an association is far less likely to happen in most big cities due to the lack of social cohesion. in a smaller town, a good long range rifleman with proper equipment, a good spotter and a good viewpoint or high position will have a severe effect on malefactors.
This is a paste from this PDF Document.
‘’‘Biosecurity A Comprehensive Action Plan’‘’ Andrew J. Grotto and Jonathan B. Tucker June 2006 link
Determine a logistical support role for the U.S. military, both active duty and the National Guard and Reserve, in responding to a major public health crisis.
Given the legal constraints on the use of active duty forces in a law-enforcement capacity, as specified under the Posse Comitatus Act, the role of the military in disaster response should be analyzed in detail and the necessary legal authorities negotiated with Congress.
Commonground,
This is the second thread I’ve had to fix for you. Please read the instructions at the bottom of the page for making links.
Commonground – at 19:39 Here is something to remember….
If we have a pandemic, alot of laws may be thrown to the 4 winds. It has been done before and will again - they call it an “national security issue” or using the “emergency war powers act”.
If we have a major-major pandemic here in the states the president will inform the heads of congress of what he is going to do. He will then issue a White House letter explaining how, when, where, and why he is done such as a thing (Example: Martial Law).
The congress will normally back the president’s move and the courts will not become involve until many years later.
So the president can do pretty much what he wants in a disaster, just by signing a letter.
I still think this movement of National Guard in South Texas has something to do with H5N1. Why now? We’ve had immigration problems for years, but now, the government is acting like something needs to be done “today” about it ????
While this event occurred far in the past, it provides a glimpse of the frailty of human nature during extended periods of food shortages;
“Throughout the city people were dying of hunger in large numbers, and enduring unspeakable sufferings. In every house the merest hint of food sparked violence, and close relatives fell to blows, snatching from one another the pitiful supports of life. No respect was paid even to the dying; the ruffians searched them, in case they were concealing food somewhere in their clothes, or just pretending to be near death. Gaping with hunger, like mad dogs, lawless gangs went staggering and reeling through the streets, battering upon the doors like drunkards, and so bewildered that they broke into the same house two or three times in an hour. Need drove the starving to gnaw at anything. “
— Josephus, The Siege of Jerusalem
Rural,
The Republicans are making a major issue out of the “broken border” in South Texas for the mid-term elections. This has nothing to do with bird flu and everything to do with electoral politics.
the role of the military in disaster response should be analyzed in detail and the necessary legal authorities negotiated with Congress.
Which, with the current state of American political affairs on both sides of the Hill, could very well be “analyzed” and “negotiated”, and then “paralyzed”, for many months after any pandemic notification, thereby quashing not only the president’s authority, but most all legal requirements used for dealing with just such a disaster.
Examples of National Guard troops being used in the capacity of law enforcement: most recently, NOLA after Katrina, 1994 after the Northridge, CA earthquake, 1990 during the Los Angeles riots, 1990 immediately after the Oakland Hills fire in CA, 1989 after the Loma Prieta, CA earthquake.
Granted, these were localized and the NG was called out in each instance by the state Governor, but
Although I fear I am treading on “politics” which I am not supposed to do, I think the Administration’s policy has more to do with midterm elections than H5N1.
The government has already stated that the borders WILL NOT be closed in the event of a pandemic except as “a last resort”. Now, since the only way a border closing or quarantine would be effective would be to do it early, before the pandemic got into full swing, what that tells me is that they are not looking to close the borders AT ALL.
If the Guard were being tasked for H5N1 support, they’d be going to power plants, water purification systems, etc and being cross trained there. Don’t think the border situation has anything to do with the flu.
hmmmm…
but, if it came right down to it, and Presidential mandates were to be paralyzed by debate, it would only take a phone call to each of the state Governors, letting them know his/her concerns, and urging them to activat the Guard.
BB-
THat only works if the governor is a republican, and only if that governor likes Bush. From what I have heard, that is a minority of the states…….
I don’t believe, in the event of a pandemic, that the Guard would be used for border patrol as much as for local law enforcement for the short term. Many of the Guardsmen are law enforcement personnel anyway, so they would have the experience.
If I remember correctly, the government just recently did state that they would not close the borders if a pandemic were to occur. OnandAnon is correct in that many Guardsmen will be cross-trained to keep the infrastructure running as smoothly as humanly possible. But don’t forget, even they could lose up to 30% of their workforce…
OnandAnon – at 22:02 --- Don’t go getting politically polarized on me….what if a pandemic comes about in 2008? W won’t be there. In a national emergency, nearly all politicians will drop their hatred for one another, in most cases, at least for the short term. Look at the first few days after 9/11. We all pulled together to face it as one. A major pandemic, IMHO, would be no different, especially if the public is made aware of what could happen if the disease is allowed to run rampant.
Taking advantage of opportunity.
Well said Bill.
Melanie - at 19:41, I could not use the “tinyurl” because it does not convert PDF files. I haven’t looked into the other way to reduce links. It was late in the day, for me, and I just posted it. I felt it was chaulk full of information, and very large, good reading for the weekend. I basically wanted to just get it out there. I won’t do it again.
Commonground,
It takes about 30 seconds to learn to make a link.
Title 10 § 12406. National Guard in Federal service: call
Whenever— (1) the United States, or any of the Territories, Commonwealths, or possessions, is invaded or is in danger of invasion by a foreign nation; (2) there is a rebellion or danger of a rebellion against the authority of the Government of the United States; or (3) the President is unable with the regular forces to execute the laws of the United States; the President may call into Federal service members and units of the National Guard of any State in such numbers as he considers necessary to repel the invasion, suppress the rebellion, or execute those laws. Orders for these purposes shall be issued through the governors of the States or, in the case of the District of Columbia, through the commanding general of the National Guard of the District of Columbia.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode10/usc_sec_10_00012406----000-.html
All of the dictates have been compiled under Executive Order (EO 12919) dealing with energy, transportation, medicine, food, etc. Do a search for EO 12919 and read Section 901 and you will see what little control we will have over anything including food and water resources. This was done in 1994 by compiling several dozens EO’s under this one.
DebP – at 07:17
re: …”the age they were wanting to target (below 15)”
When I see the types of TV advertising for the Army it seems aimed at that vunerable age group. If advertising for cigaretts can aim at teens, so can anything.
The corner is calling out to them at an age younger than 15. I would rather see them in the service than on the street. For some of them, the Army is the only way out.
BB-
with respect, I anticipate that the local authorities will have already “committed and deployed” their local Guard forces. It would not be the first time that governors have refused to allow federal callup of their Guard forces in cases where there was no invasion or rebellion.
And it has nothing to do with republicrat vs. democan controlling the Presidency; whichever half of the oligarchy controlls the WHite House will have the same problem. As regards politicians putting politics aside on 9/11, those professions of non-partisan politics lasted about a week or so, in my recollection. The only event a politician doesn’t use to angle for political advantage is his funeral.
OnandAnon – at 23:31 --- That’s not what you’re inferring in your post at OnandAnon–at 22:02. That is why I said what I said.
Closed due to length. Conversation is continued here.