Since this question has been raised a few times in several places but never adequately addressed on its own, I thought we should consider it carefully.
Some questions that come to mind:
You cannot survive in a city, much less an apartment complex. The virus (once it mutates) can and will get through the entire apartment complex (especially if you have heat or air going). Also, the stench of rotting bodies will be enough to drive you out of your apartment.
Gee thanks for that. I live in apartment and have no chance of being anywhere else. I refute your claim that it will be impossible to survive. Certainly it will bring its own challenges but i believe i am up to the task..disabled or not.
Sorry for the reality check, but please show me where my logic fails.
OK, let’s just start with the assumption that you’re SOL if you have to live in an apt WTHSTF.
That said, what can apartment dwellers do to improve their lot? (and does anyone know definitive answers to the questions in the first post?)
Reality check? Are you really that arrogant that you can presume to know that everyone living in an apartment will be dead? What utter nonsense. And how incredibly rude you are!!
Chances are good I will be living in a multi-story of some sort and I want to know what I can do about it.
One idea: get a group going in the complex re: awareness? But then this could draw attention re: preps.
I don’t think it would be impossible to survive in an apt, but it does seem scary and perhaps difficult, so I want to learn what I can.
Madam Woodstock,
I never said that EVERYONE would be dead, but that they certainly would be exposed to it. I don’t see what arrogance has to do with it. It is common sense. Can you really expect to contain everything that you need to survive, stay away from any influence of the surrounding air, and do it for a period of months. I suppose it is ARROGANT because it doesn’t fit YOUR PLANS. Perhaps I think it arrogant of you to believe that you could really pull it off. I wish you the best though, and were I able to lend you a hand, I am sure that I would. But thank you for ripping me a new one.
Ricewiki: For myself i will seal up the vents that go out of my bathrooms. They are the only ones that go into a common airway. The toilets…dont know about them, so will be as vigilant as i can about keep lids down and spraying before use…maybe sluicing with bleach after use as well. I’m fortunate that i share no entrances ie lifts or hallways. We have a private entrance. Our airconditioner has a HEPA filter on it and i have bought a second portable one to have in the bedroom.
HEPA air filters…. good idea! I think I have one, and they’re darn meticulous… but… I’ll have to check out how effective they would be…. could they really keep a virus inside?
You are probably better off just sealing your vents off with the good old survival standby: plastic and duct tape. Open a window though - that air will be better than the air you would share with your neighbors.
I’d like to hear from others who will actually be living in apartments during the pandemic… (if it occurs!) What are you planning to do? Has your building taken any precautions? Meetings, etc.?
i dont know how effective the HEPA filter really is, but they tell me the ones I have are what they use in hospitals for infectious things. Its the best i can do so it will have to work! LOL! Also it has an ozone thingy thats supposed to help kill any icky virus’s lurking about
Ha. Building precautions. Most people don’t even know what Bird Flu is or how it would affect them. Precautions take $$$ and I’m sure its not on any budgets. Take care of yourself - nobody else will.
I know, Sanguine,…. I’m not relying on other people…. but it would be better to have group awareness rather than looters…
Yes, would be better, but I don’t think you’ll get it. Not for a while. And if it shows up tomorrow, there will be no more time for that.
Is ANYONE else going to be living in apts during the possible pandemic? I’d like to hear from you…
what should we do?
Nikolai in sydney is also an apartment dweller…
Maybe we need a thread for “Apartment Preppers”…
good idea. Can the new server stand us adding a thread do u think?
:) so far… It’s definitely a segment that needs to be addressed.
what part of the world are you in ricewiki?
Ontario Canada!
geez…you’re up late!
signing off now….:) catch you later, Woodstock…. we’ll figure out the apartment complex somehow….
I live in an apartment in eastern Washington state—have my own furnace, central air, separate entrance, metal front door, balcony for growing plants . . . . In this situation, I don’t see that my staying here is any more dangerous than living in a house. And I don’t have a choice; I have to stay close to my elderly parents in order to help them out with things. They’re the ones I worry about because they have all those ground-level windows.
If I were desperate for food, I would first try to burglarize stores; after that, I would go for a house that looks like the people inside have some money. I would not go apartment to apartment in a complex of modestly-priced apartments full of not-rich young families.
Well, Looks like if this happens anytime within next 6 months I will most likely be in a apartment at the time. Because of this I’ll take following precautions. In my opinion these are the basics, there is actually a lot more refinements I would do as time, funds and concern warrant… 1)Its a pain to move but I never would take the ground floor, since in many apartment complexes the ground floors have a lot of foot traffic from all residents in the building/complex who also use Complex facilities (Laundry, Pool etc)also break-in and theft is far more likely on a ground floor apartment than a higher one, because of simple reason a burglar would like to leave in a hurry. Prefer a second floor apartment for easier routes of escape in emergencies. 2)Water filters on water taps for drinking, also a lot of stored water (good idea in any case) 3)Check for shared ducting or Utility connections between apartments that are not adequately sealed , and seal them as best as possible. Also check how internal air ducting is done in Apartment, and note all places where it can be closed if necessary. 4)Do not make preps obvious to neighbors especially regarding supplies unless good friends you’d be willing to share supplies with. 5)Good locks on door, as well as a security floor brace. No need to go overboard, If someone wants in, you are not likely to stop them without harm to them or you. 6)Long term supplies of various kinds with eye to easily prepared items that you can prepare even without power. Do NOT forget pets supplies as well. be prepared to ration supplies to maximize them. 7)Entertainment plans that don’t require power. 8)Many disinfectants using a pleasant smell (You have to be willing to use it a lot and that will help) 9)Prepare Plans/supplies in the event circumstances force you out. Keep supplies in trunk of vehicle as well (Just in case) 10)Soaps, cleaners etc in good supply, You may need to wash clothes by hand so be prepared for that as well. 11)Anyone leaving home heads immediately to shower upon return. clothes washed/disinfected right then in bathroom and left there to dry. Else have a hamper near front door to place all clothes into for later washing. shoes get disinfected and left in area near door, don’t track through home.
Also, it occurs to me that I have a good set-up here for laying low. It’s a well-built building and I hardly ever hear a peep from my neighbors, so I wouldn’t have to keep completely quiet. I have blinds and insulated curtains that would keep anyone from seeing a small light. My balcony faces a row of trees that would block anyone from looking in from the houses next door. I have my own washer and dryer, so I don’t need to leave to do laundry.
My parents, on the other hand, seem like an attractive target to a thief. They obviously have some money, judging by the house they live in. It’s going to be very difficult to convince them to hunker down, as they’re set in their ways, so they’ll be letting the cat out, blasting the TV, and keeping all their lights on unless I can get them to be more careful. They have a freezer in their garage that I’m sure all their neighbors have seen. They have all those ground-floor windows and they’re not physically strong.
You have lots of good ideas there, Grimoire. I will definitely steal a couple of them. ;)
When you’re looking for an apartment, you definitely would want one above the first floor, but you also might think about one you could sneak in and out of if you had to. For example, in my last apartment, the only way out was a creaky old staircase and everybody knew you were using it. Then you had to cross a courtyard that all the apartments faced. In this apartment, I have my own entrance and the stairs are concrete; if I needed to check on my parents or something, I could very easily sneak out without being seen or heard. Few windows face my stairs and my car is parked right at the foot of the staircase. And I could walk to my parents’ house if gas wasn’t available.
I think anywhere you live is going to work as well as your willingness to prep, creativity, and vigilance.
A few special challenges presented by apartments not yet mentioned include garbage collection (or lack of), waste disposal in the event of failure of sewage/flushing systems, contamination of common surfaces, fewer choices for alternative sources of energy, etc.
You may need to have more of almost everything because neighbours are far more likely to come and ask you for stuff if they can do that without going onto the street. And, for your own sake and the common good, there are some things like disinfectants or even masks that you would want to give to your neighbour if they run out.
Also, apartments may be a place where social organisation may have to work specially well.
Things like going out as safely as possible to shop for others so they may be able to stay at home if sick. (Here I’m trying to plan for a mild pandemic too.)
Maybe organising that the shopping will be done by first week survivors.
Maybe organising the neighbourhood in “layers” so that those who think they can be careful are allowed to have contact with the rest of the world, while the others are in a safe island. I mean, if I’m given two choices (1) stay at home with no food and (2) go to the supermarket and expose myself, I’d rather invent choice (3) I go to the market, the rest of you stay at home. So we could organise (3) so that as many people as possible stay at home, and those who do go out will be as safe as possible, do asynchronous transfer as safely as possible, and can be isolated and taken care of if they fall ill.
Teens will have to decide if they stay with parents or with their gang. This needs further thinking.
The whole aproach needs further thinking.
I like this threat. Finally some concrete plans how/whether it might work.
if you have pets, keep it secret ! Your neighbors won’t like it.
Moving in and out of the house should be restricted to one person, who had appropriate cloths and knows how to desinfect. Of course he expects some payment for his shoppings. And he/she should avoid contact with others more than anyone else.
No visits ! Everyone will take care that noone enters and moves.
There will/should be experts to examine all dwellings before panflu starts whether they are safe.
Get some water-tank, rain-collecting on top of the building, desinfected and going into the appartments if normal water fails.
Get old low-power computers or notebooks and low-energy radios, avoid cooking if possible. Have a generator for important power (but not cooking).
Have fly-curtains to prevent insects entering. Seal all openings.
Get desinfection units, protective cloths
STH - you are planning to go out (secretely)? They might prevent you from reentering ! Garbage - through it out of the window ! Or give it to the transport-person. One specialized protected transport-person in each house, who desinfects and transports things.
Hmm, well organized appartmenthouses should be safer than one-family-houses.
Provided there are no people who go out to work daily. We shouldn’t mix these groups. Or they get the lower lodgements.
this really _should_ have been done and thought about elsewhere already.
Where is it ?
anon_22: i confess the garbage collection thing brings me out in a sweat. We have a communal rubbish room…. I’m tempted to put a notice with an anonymous gmail address for communications re this issue in the event of pandemic. Just to see if there is anyone else prepping in the complex without revealing myself
I think that’s a good idea Woodstock in a number of ways. I think if a group of apartments banded together they could do well looking out for and after each other. If you all joined up, you’ve effectively got a very large house that you can take turns to protect, create alternate water catchment (or other projects), care for the sick and for kids etc etc. Don’t see it as a problem - look at the advantages :-)
Yes. We also have big iron gates that close the complex after hours as well as 24 hour guards. It has the potential to be a very effective situation, however there are about 150 units and that means 150 sets of opions and agendas.
Wow, those of you who live in the cities and apartments are going to have to plan very well, My mother lives in the city and im trying to convince her to move here. I am worried that her water will be shut off and her power too! She would be better off here but she is front line worker and doesnt know what she will do yet, she might stay in town to work! i tell her she’s crazy to stay, and if she does she wont be able to get here if she changed her mind. The roads will be blocked off. My community plans on shutting off all main roads that lead to the city. I can imagine all the outlaws being called to bring their guns and take stand at the end of the roads.
I’m inclined to think that if people were running out of food in my complex, they would go to family nearby for help, rather than to their neighbors. It’s a large complex that takes up a whole city block, both sides of the street, and I’ve never met any of my neighbors. The young Hispanic families here would probably rely on their relatives or others in the Hispanic community, not a white woman they don’t know—that’s just the reality of race relations here.
My thought about the garbage issue. All organic debris that can be disposed using sink disposal (while power available) should be dealt with in that manner so as little as possible goes to trash.
a good supply of tie-able plastic bags should be available, some separate enclosure like a closet or similiar should be cleared out and used to store garbage for short term, so to limit repeated exposure outside. In case of “wet” organic debris, double bag for storage and tie tightly each bag separately.
also when purchasing supplies, try to choose easily broken down and or stackable containers to limit volume of trash. etc. etc… you get the idea :)
yes, that all sounds reasonable. But why hasn’t this already been worked out by the government or organizations ? What do they recommend ? If this isn’t available somewhere, then they did a pretty bad job. I’d expect some plans which are handed to each person and then signed. Also lists, with people who want to change dwellings when panflu hits in case they want to live in another community.
There are apartments and, there are apartments. Some are 10 units in 2 stories, some are hundreds of units in 30+ story high rise. They are like night and day. Imagine if the water and power goes out and you have to trudge up 30 flights of stairs with a pail of water! It is still possible to survive, if you plan right. Water containers can be brought up, camping supplies bought (stove, sleeping bags, etc ((incase of cold weather)), food, etc. BUT, most complexes have a renter/homeowner group which it might be wise to talk to. Just bring it us as a ‘disaster’ plan, with bird flu as a minor point at this time. Disdcuss such things, as what to do if the water fails because of a break in the line, power outages. Most areas are in some earthquake/tornado/hurricane zone, start with that.
gs – at 11:23 asked
>yes, that all sounds reasonable. But why hasn’t this already been worked out by the government or organizations ?<
You are STILL expecting governments or big organizations to lead the way? Even after all the examples you’ve been given here of high level ineptitude or lack of understanding of the problem?
For pity sakes, man: WHY????
Anyway, getting back to the issue at hand
Viruses don’t climb walls or fly very well. On the other hand people can carry viruses anywhere they go, contaminating common serfaces like elevator buttons or doorknobs. Height isn’t much of a protection except that it keeps burglers from having easy access to your place.
Plastic and duct tape will provide an unbreachable barrier to viruses when used to seal vents. And may also cut off the flow of air and heat into your apartment, so consider well before you do this. Keep in mind that unless an infected bird or person dies right on top of an air intake vent, there’s not much chance viral bodies will be in your air system; a much greater problem, grisly though it is to consider, might be people who die in surrounding apartments and are not found until the smell becomes unbearable…
Safety in a high rise: One concern I haven’t seen addressed is, in the event of power failure, you may have lots of people in an apartment complex trying to use alternative means of heating, lighting, and cooking to get by. The risk of fire or carbon monoxide poisoning should not be underestimated. I’d have battery operated CO and fire detectors in my apartment, and a way of getting out that can’t be blocked even if that means mountain climbing ropes to go out the window and rappel down to the ground.
Definitely some good points, FW. I’m thinking about getting one of those ladders that you hang on the window in case of fire.
gs, I’m afraid FW is right about help from the government; the U.S. government has made very clear that we’re on our own. And there may be a cultural issue here as well. Europeans would be a lot more open to their government moving them around or otherwise telling them what to do in case of emergency. Americans have a real problem with that! :)
Living things are not my area of science, but I did some reading a while back to see if I could learn just how viruses are transmitted. This was prompted by a discussion in another place about people who were talking about sealing all the windows in their houses shut, which seemed wrong to me but I didn’t know why.
I found an excellent discussion of the subject here:
The critical point: “There is no evidence that influenza transmission can occur across long distances (e.g., through ventilation systems) or through prolonged residence in air, as seen with airborne diseases such as tuberculosis.”
If I lived in an apartment, I think it would be important to know if the H5N1 virus was different from the seasonal flu, if it could survive in droplet nuclei, and if so, for how long. Perhaps someone out there knows.
Thank you thank you everyone for these pointers!! I have to read and study closely…
the “having-to-carry-water-up-14-stories” issue is really scary. I guess I wouldn’t be showering very regularly!
Nobody knows what the person-to-person mutation will take the form of. The study above also did not mention the rate of shedding produced in a dead viral generator.
Are those worm farm things practical? A box of dirt with worms to eat your garbage and make compost, which you can use to grow greens in front of the window-sounds like a good cycle, but you’d have to keep it going; freeze-dried worms aren’t functional. On second thought, the kind of garbage they would eat may be scarce in our preps. Fruit peels and stem ends of fresh vegetables, ugly bits of produce - if we had them, we’d probably eat them ourselves. :(
Thanks for getting this discussion going, ricewiki. I keep reading about all these other folks putting up solar panels and getting manual pumps for their wells and I think, “what about the rest of us?” We have to make do with what we have and it’s time right now to think about how to do that.
Sorry, gs, I meant to respond to your other comment and then forgot about it. Yes, I’m sure I’m going to have to check on my parents; there’s just no way around it. (I think there’s a good chance I’d have to move in with them for the sake of security, pooling supplies, and to help with the care of any of us who get sick.) This complex is too big and too open to be closed off easily and, again, this is not a cohesive group; we don’t have a tenants’ organization and people don’t stay here for years and years and get chummy with their neighbors.
What size apt building does everyone live in? # of units? or # of stories?
I know, STH… there’s a major gap in our planning and we need to address apartment dwellers now! Woodstock and I were thinking of getting a separate thread going just for apartment dwellers, but maybe this is good enough.
OK, this may not be terribly helpful but my husband and I own several apartment units. They are along the line of “duplexes” vs. multi-levels but some of the buildings are the one-up-one-down variety.
When we have to turn the aparment you find the weak spots on cleaning.
A couple of suggestions, since we really don’t know “when/if” there will be a pandemic and we don’t know “when/if” there will be an announcement warning folks and when/if there is one, how much notice will be given. That being the case, changing cleaning habits now might be better than trying to change them later.
1. At least once a month give your apartment, condo, townhome, etc. a thorough cleaning in all the places you don’t usually clean. That means all the grease catching places, all the ceiling fans, all the grills/grates, front and/or back stoop or porch area, dust bunny colonies, etc.
2. Do as much of this cleaning with a bleach or Lysol type cleaner. The ones that purport to kill “99% of germs”. However, when choosing one of these cleaners, make sure that you check the directions specific to that cleaner for using it as a disinfectant. Some will only take a spritz and a wipe to disinfect, some say quite plainly that you need to soak and let stand for at least 10 minutes to use as a disinfectant.
3. Change your air filters at least every 30 days. This will help keep your duct work clean.
4. Make sterile cleanliness a habit. Don’t go more than 24 hours without disinfecting your bathrooms.
5. At least once a week … I do this 3 or 4 times a week … use alcohol to clean all of the phones … handset ot buttons. Also clean all door knobs, faucet handles, toilet handles, the peep hole on the door, etc. Also all keyboards, even the computer one.
6. Disinfect all toothbrushes and hairbrushes as often as necessary.
If you go barefoot in your home, you will have additional cleaning to do.
Keep your closets and places you leave your shoes sprayed with disinfectant.
I know this sounds like nit-picking but I have five kids and they so rarely get sick that it has been literally years since I’ve taken any of them to the pediatrician for anything other than a check up for summer camp.
Hubby works in “at risk” locations and with “at risk” members of the public every day. We have to be concientuous about clealiness habits.
Even the cleanest of our tenants leave behind an amazing amount of work. We all tend to clean around things and when all the things are moved, it usually shows where the “weak” points are.
Primarily kitchen, bathroom, closets and floor areas closest to the front and back doors. Also window sills and vents.
A good floor/carpet cleaning will also freshen a place up.
Apartment dwellers, read the thread on limited space gardening. Good ideas if you plan on staying in the apartment for a long time.
a problem could be people who work outside every day in protective cloths. You need a desinfection unit. For shopping as I said, I’d prefer a specialist with good suit+mask. You could make up a central food-storing in a garage or such.
If not the government, then some University,CIDRAP,CDC,.. could make/approve these plans. Figure out, whether electricity is safe in your area. Email+e-banking+telefone for everyone
My current housing complex is a large square with central courtyard containing Pool, Gym and Laundry Facilities, There is a exit to the exterior of the complex at each corner, but all entrances to the units is from the courtyard, 3 stories all the way around, each unit has 3 windows and door facing pool in the center with 6 units per side per floor (64 units) Floors 2 and 3 have a 6 ft wide walkway to access the apartments, with a stairwell in each corner, and elevator in 2 corners.
Parking for all the units surrounds the entire square with Guest parking area offset to one side, 4 dumpsters handle trash needs which are tucked back between parking grids against the outer boundary, the exterior of the complex shows 3 smaller windows on the exterior per unit, but otherwise looks very spartan, almost fort-like (Courtyard is where landscaping is)
Each Unit in the building has thick walls and self contained hot water and Air conditioing per unit, But drain shares vertical sewage lines, AC vents are at ground level.
Design of complex is VERY sturdy and utilitarian, (designed very well against hurricanes after all)
I currently live in a small apartment building on the top floor (3rd). Technically they’re condos, but I pay rent. However, I would not hole up there during a crisis. I would leave town.
I had the most dreadful nightmares last night thanks to thinking about this thread!! LOL!!
Dream, then act Woodstock. All progress is good at this moment in time. An individual with knowledge only has just created an advantage for their loved ones. Taking a few small actions here and there again may redouble your advantage over the average unknowledgable individual. Do what you can and then prepare to help others.
I live in a three family apartment. Conveintly my mother inlaw lives in the same house. And a single lady on the third floor. We have discuss the flu all together. I have gotten them all to prepare. And have stated that there will be strict rules applyed about leaving and entering the house. As to sanitizing your shoes, etc. I live in a city setting. But in a industrial area where there are few houses. Close to the ocean where the wind makes a good breeze in the area.
Trash will go in a small house outside that could hold lots of trash. If need be I will burn the trash in a metal barrel at night.My house is surrounded by 18 foot fence from a business that surrounds my home so security is pretty good. We will do everything and anything it takes to survive. Intruders will not be welcomed. Will let the dogs roam the hallways at night. Good watch dogs. And big ones at that. Our cars have gas locks so no one can steal the gas. The whole house has double doors making it hard to break in. If need be will board up windows on lower level. Have a nice porch with no access from the outside to go out on for fresh air.As far as the mail goes i don’t want anything from the outside. I have wind up flashlights no batteries needed. Portable radio. Police scanner. ( for house and car ) Don plan on going to work if i can help it. Any values are locked up in the bank anyway. If the shtf im going north to the mountains where we have a chalet on a private mountain. Could house everyone we know there. Has its own well that is covered. Have set up multiply food sources at many family members home. So if i go to their house im not mouching off of them. And need be it if they run out of food eat it thats what it is there for. I bought everyone I know mask that didn’t have any money. (won on a scratch ticket put it to good use) We have set up a sharing statis and that will come in handy later. We are all looking out for each other.
I asked the Reveres on Effect Measure about this a few months ago (i.e. - am I doomed, since I live in a very large apartment building with common ventilation?), and they more or less said that the flu will get you no matter you are. Or, it won’t. No need to move out of an apartment, really, if H1N1 was able to infect people on islands in the middle of nowhere.
I’m paraphrasing, of course. They said it better.
Just keep hands clean, be cautious, do the best one can. Pray for the best. Isolate from crowds. Hope all goes well. What more can one do…I am not going crazy worrying about this. Just going to do the best I can.
bird watcher, the dogs could be transmitters. I don’t want to have animals near
me in a pandemic.
kk, how did H1N1 infect people on islands ? Is it documented ?
Could be animals !? If there is no need to move and you would get
it anyway, then why should people isolate or store food ?
It’s just logics: the virus must enter the body and when it doesn’t you won’t get it. These suits with full-face mask should work - the virus can’t
enter through plastic. An appartment with no insects and filtering
incoming air should work too. (or not ? why ?)
Now you can’t keep that 24/7 , so there are only problems
when changing filters, changing masks, getting stuff in or out.
When this is done correctly, it _must_ work.
Social distancing , closing schools , will slow the spread
but not prevent it, I read. That is presumably because we
are not expected to do it consequently enough.
I just don’t know how well that would work, gs. Human beings just aren’t that good at 100% consistency. And most people can’t completely isolate themselves. I’m storing food, water, and supplies, but I’m going to have to go out to get refills on my medications and the ones my parents take. If I don’t, I won’t need to worry about the flu; my hypothyroidism will do me in.
Also, I think there’s a good chance that at least one of the four of us would get sick; if that happens, it’s likely that others in the family would be exposed (Dr. Woodson believes it’s more or less impossible to prevent exposure if you’re caring for someone sick with influenza).
I guess my point here is that perfection isn’t attainable for most of us, but we just have to do the best we can with the resources we have.
it should be possible, if we do it correctly and really consequent. But most what I read is, that it would only delay the spread. Why ? This should somehow be tested !
gs: the slower the spread, the better chance of getting a vaccine before too many people are infected. Also virus’ will burn out eventually…if we can slow it enough it will die before we all get it. I think
also, why should it be as contagious as the 1918 virus ? Isn’t it much more likely that it will be as contagious as normal flu ? Now, I didn’t get normal flu since decades, since I stay at home when flu is prevalent. Will the same strategy work with H5N1 ? Yes, we have some immunity against normal flu, even if it mutated and the protection is not complete. But then, why should H5N1 make such a big jump at once and not just slowly become more contagious ?
Woodstock, the vaccine is probably only available when it already “died”. But we won’t whether it’s dead or only sleeping
No, Avian Flu is type A Influenza which is not like the normal flu (type C). Type A is always dangerous. See Virology thread going on right now on Wikie.
The vaccine will be available to begin synthesizing as a immunization after it becomes person to person, but it will take 6 months to fully synthesize it and get it out to people (in the amount required). Some people may get it (the immunization) sooner, some later.
so the slower the spread…the better ?
Woodstock:probably yes, but it’s not clear.
Sanguine:it’s unclear whether they can make _enough_ vaccine in 6 months.
The large amount needed is also a problem.
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