Someone on another thread said their son asked if he would still graduate if he has to SIP (Shelter In Place) before finishing a course or a program.
This is a really good question. What will college and university students do if they are mid-way through their programs (where you pay through the teeth for each 3-month course)?
Will transcripts and status be put safely “on hold”? Or will students lose their money and their academic standing because they or their families decided to being self-quarantine?
Are universities and colleges making provisions for this situation? Does anyone know, or know anyone who knows?
The Chronicle of Higher Education had some articles about a consortium of college health care authorities beginning to tackle the issue. More than that, or where it stands, I don’t know.
I’m not aware of any plans at the university & community colleges in our area but I do know that the univ’s in New Orleans were able to make arrangements with other schools after Katrina hit re: transferring credits taken by students who had to take classes elsewhere. They also rearranged some requirements for graduating seniors, so as not to penalize them or delay their graduation. I would assume something similar could be arranged in the case of a pandemic.
I just checked and there is a section on the pandemicflu.gov website for colleges and universities to try and establish a plan, and I found a website for Emory Univ that outlines their efforts, so am assuming others are probably following suit.
ricewiki: I have asked these questions and gotten the answer that it really depends on a lot of factors. If the semester just started and the university is closed down, the semester will essentially have not happened. If it is after mid-semester, students may be able to finish their courses online, or simply have the option of taking the grades that they have in their courses at that point (that is how it works when you are called up for military duty). A pandemic will be a financial disaster for all brick and mortar institutions, but I doubt they will incur ill will by keeping tuition payments and not granting course credit. Of course, graduation ceremonies will be out of the question and it’s possible matriculating students could be waiting awhile on diplomas and transcripts.
There are plans in place, but the most common answer is: “it depends”
“the univ’s in New Orleans were able to make arrangements with other schools after Katrina hit”
There isn’t going to be any better place to transfer to in the event of a pandemic.
This brings up another reminder concerning education.
If at all possible, each individual student should keep a hard copy record … transcript, report cards, receipt for paid credit hours, etc. … in the event that a computerized copy of their school information is not available for whatever reason.
There may come a time when it takes so long for those types of requests to be fulfilled … for whatever reason including a shortage of staff or a shortage of technical staff to fix a broken mainframe … that having a hard copy will really be beneficial.
I’ve had to remind parents that I’ve mentored in homeschooling that they should be keeping some type of record of their child’s education … transcripts (even if homemade), sample of work, certificates of completion, lists of curriculum used, what have you. Rock hard evidence trumps bad or non-existent computer records every time. Especially if at least some of the documentation is notarized or has original signature or official stamp.
No, probably not a high transfer rate as there was after Katrina, lol…if anything, the kids are all going to be trying to get home and SIP. My point was rather that the schools were able to be flexible in finding alternate possibilities (assuming less-than-total disruption of society and a (mostly) reliable source of electricity and communication).
Kathy in FL – at 13:30 Great advice Kathy. I would also add to keep FAFSA and loan records in a waterproof file box that you can grab quickly in case you have to evacuate.
Degree diplomas should be photocopied and waterproof-stored too — imagine, your 4–10+ years going out the door? How much money did you end up spending for that piece of paper? How many years of our lives? etc.
Boy oy boy… maybe I should take a digital picture of mine, too, and scan it… don’t really feel like removing the frame and photocopying… is that my only option? Would a digital pic be just as good evidence?
In a true pandemic, the professors and staff at the college would also be sick, I suspect they would just close for the semester. It depends on how bad it is. If there is no one to prepare food in the dorms, or the health care center in swamped they will probably have to close the university.
I work for a medium sized university in a system of nine other colleges and junior colleges. Nothing has been mentioned at this University or at the System level about pandemic flu. Any answers will be forth coming as a result of parents calling the school and asking hard questions from the university administration.
When our campus was closed for Rita, the Admins did everything within their power to accomodate the students(even to the extent of allowing them to withdraw with full tuition refunds). The hurricane was a local event however, and all bets are off as to what will happen if pan-flu hits the U.S.
I work for a small private college. I have emailed our VPAA with links about planning for this. He says the information was given to our central administration. We do have on-line grading capabilities. For example, my students submit papers through a web portal. If things get bad, I intend to keep my classes running on-line as best I can, but don’t know how well that will really work for the whole school.
I post here fairly often but am going anon for this one, folks. The school gets jiggy and I don’t want to cause issues when I want them to prepare instead. I don’t see how we will feed and house quarantined kids.
A google search for university pandemic shows up quite a few statements from universities that do have groups preparing pandemic plans, though they don’t usually link to what the plans are. I don’t know whether ours has one, have passed the question up.
I read somewhere (I only have time for NYT, WSJ and Newsweek) was that the measles outbreak in the Midwest has really brought attention the vulnerability of kids on campus - close proximity, etc. However, I suspect universities will be slow to act, based only on personal experience. 1) I went to under grad and grad in the South, where, if you get snow it can be a real problem because people don’t know how to drive in it, no plows, etc. Basically everything shuts down. Everything but my universities. The reason given was because they had hospitals (Emory and Duke) if they closed campus then no one would show up to work at the hospital either. Imagine if they said they were shutting down for AF? The hospital would be deserted.
2) When I was in grad school there was an outbreak of Chicken Pox on the main campus. As this was MANY years before the vaccine came out, there were a lot of very sick kids because as you get older the disease gets worse. But they never once, to my knowlege, ever discussed shutting down. My boyfriend at the time was an RA in one of the dorms and they never even came in and disinfected the communal bathrooms beyond regular cleaning.
If I had anyone away at school I’d have some serious discussions about options should TSHTF.
anon prof – at 15:57 - “I don’t see how we will feed and house quarantined kids”
IMHO collegs and universities will be sending them home as long as transportation has not been restricted. They can not afford the liability of keeping them in residnece halls. Besides as a parent, how would you feel if the school told you your child CAN’T come home?
I’m a prof in a New England university and there has been NO mention at all about any of this. I, too, have wondered what will happen (not just for students, but faculty/staff). I agree with others that schools will probably send students home unless there is some immediate emergency where they cannot do so.
lauraB,
Everything you say is a good point, but it’s a mumps epidemic, not measles.
http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/local/14567108.htm
Just found this online. It’s about Penn State.
Oops! Got my “m’s” mixed up. Apologies.
The other flaw in sending kids home is they will just further spread disease aka 1918 troops.
Hillbilly Bill — I agree that the schools will almost certainly send kids home, but we have a significant international student population, and some of them are here even at winter break. Some go live with host families then, but I don’t see that system working if the flu breaks out. You are right about the transportation issue — many of these kids are on scholarships and can’t afford to fly home except for the one round trip ticket included in the scholarship. That’s what makes me worry. They may well need housing and food for a while.
anon prof,
The international student population will require colleges to make far more detailed plans than “I think we will just send them all home.”
And we will all be better off for it.
whoooo hooo hooo….. good point anon prof….
that’s gonna be quite the logistical problem… bet they didn’t have that prob anywhere near like this in 1918… yikers.
After repeatedly bugging our administration as politely as I could, I was told that closing the college would be the last resort, despite the federal governments plan suggestions to the contrary. The economic realities of closing down are unthinkable for private colleges, I can’t think of any student @ $25,000/year that will go home if the college closes and not expect a refund.. no tuition $$ mean no income, means no paychecks for professors and staff, bills don’t get paid, loss of federal financial aid monies, grants are put on hold, etc. etc.
If they don’t close down and it is H2H within our state I will go AWOL and shelter in place with my kids. I will teach as best I can through our online course management system and expect to be paid as no where in my contract does it state that my teaching has to be face-to-face. In fact I’ve deliberately planned that all my textbooks for the next year will include online components, discussions, simulations etc which gives me multiple options for continuing my courses via distance education.
On-campus Planning right now includes an awareness campaign for good hygeine habits and how we could set up a “quarentine” dorm for sick students. Other than that and the school health facility stockpiling some extra masks and disinfectant, nada- nothing -zilch.
Because of the wonderful tenure process (& a comment that was made on here in another thread -something about the nail that sticks up gets hit) I too will remain anonymous for this post but am watching it carefully.
An on-campus quarantine room for the sick? What are these people thinking? That is such a laugh. Will they go home at the end of each day, too, then?! Gaaahhrd!!
no name PhD,
please keep up the good work…. we need voices like you.
As a Student Affairs staff person, I would hope that I am considered non-essential personnel, however I am unable to get a decision on that from our Human Resources Dept. At the first sign of H2H, I am heading for home. That old back injury does tend to flare up unexpectedly. I have a TON of sick time and I will use it until they have more things to worry about than me not showing up. After the pandemic, those of us that survive will have all the work we want.
IMHO, TPTB at a college or university don’t fart without first checking with the Head Attorney. If they have to keep students in any capacity, they will only do so if they can pass the liability onto some other entity. Trust me on this one, I have been around to long to believe anything else.
Time for another scotch, Indonesia has given me the jitters.
HB - I think Indonesia is giving a lot of us the jitters tonight. Hitting the bourbon myself;-)
Hillbilly, LOL. I think you’re right about TPTB.
I don’t drink, so I’ve hit pizza and coke!!! ICK!
WIT: cheers! I hope we are drinking to something that is nothing
We have been very concerned about this particular issue as well. My husband teaches at a large-ish private university that has, as far as we can tell, no plans (finished or in the pipeline) for dealing with any of this.
On a good day he can still bring home bronchitis, colds, etc from all students with whom he has contact; the only illnesses we or our children had last fall were those that he brought home from school. With as quickly as things can spread on campus (this year mumps, last year meningitis, the year or two before that it was a measles outbreak) and as many students as he sees in a week (he teaches a full load, some classes have 100+ students), it has not been a comforting thought for either of us. We, too, have discussed the possibility of him only teaching online, whether it would jeopardize his tenure track status or not. Reading earlier comments makes me think I must tell him to double-check his contract to see the specific wording. :(
Anon (married to another no name PhD) – at 22:49
Are you familiar with the “Six Degrees of Seperation” theory? It works way to well at colleges. For instance, today many student sat across my desk as I helped them with various matters. Anyone of them may room with someone who is dating somebody who lives is an apartment with someone who just had relatives visit from Indonesia.
The reality can’t be ignored.
Good point HB - I don’t exactly live in a thriving metropolis - but I do live around the corner from a pilot who flies a corporate jet all over the world - he flies out of a large city, but wants to live in a much smaller town. He could easily have just been to Asia, talked to a neighbor who then walked their dog down my street and said hello to me…this is how it will play out, I fear - it could already be here and we just don’t know it.
WIT: You are absolutely right, and no doubt better at typing than I am right now….
“closing the college would be the last resort”, well it may come sooner than they -uh- “think”.
(Why do various entities keep thinking they can somehow keep their own economic toast from being burnt to a crisp in a global hotzone influneza pandemic?? And isn’t every life saved during pandemic going to be more valuable afterwards?)
Current H5N1 is hitting what age groups, at what mortality rate, when the hospital has international help, and only a patient or few?
If pandemic breaks out, people are going to want to be where they can survive for months, and preferably with their loved ones.
I don’t think continuing as normal will be on students or staff’s minds, and why aren’t the local officials talking to the regional officials and the parents about all this? Think of the evacuation/traffic plan needed? How are all the students going to get home who want to? What about those who can’t?
Do universities with hospitals have stockpiles of imported drugs/meds most likely to be needed, including for existing conditions, fever, and pain relief? And PPE? And food and how will the power be kept on? Are they keeping up with the latest on H5N1?
Anon (married to…)
I’ve been through the P&T process. Things will be different in a depopulated world. Everything your spouse can do creatively will be valuable to the institution and will matter.
I’m a current university student at a largish uni as well. My bf also teaches full load. Please, if any of you no-name PhD’s wish to speak in person/private, I would like to talk to you to learn more about plans. I will be moving to another university in the fall also. Please email me if so at ricewiki at hot mail dot com. Thanks. Very concerned! (Will I graduate if I have to SIP?! Will my courses/tuition/grades be cancelled? etc. etc.)
crfullmoon – at 23:08 In answer to your questions:
Not really, doubt it, no, haven’t though about that, don’t think so, no, no, no, no.
RW @23:09 My recommendation to students who have asked me about it (I teach in the sciences and students are curious) is to have their parents (as well as themselves) call/email the board of directors and the president as well as Student Life demanding action plans, that are detailed and communicated.
The consumer demand drives the product and the delivery of that product….a half of a dozen irrate parents who are footing the bill to send their dear ones off to a “home-away-from-home” as well as students who can be tenacious as bulldogs, demanding action & answers, will get much more attention & response than would the entire faculty and staff doing the same. In their minds we are “expendable”, as there is always another poor PhD grad willing to work.
I wish I had answers to your questions, yours and mine go hand in hand… if I can’t teach, you obviously can’t graduate… if you don’t take the whole course do you have to pay for all it? If the school is closed because of government orders who “refunds” the $$ or provides the credit for the course already partially completed?? Is there a “pandemic” clause in the school insurance policy that will pay them $$ if they are forced to close??
I’d check into your schools policy on transfer credits into your major (as some are allowed, but usually a limited #) and find courses that would be avaiable on line through reputable college/university offering them in that manner that will count for you. I’d plan on taking a couple of htose each term until graduation so if the SHTF you hopefully can SIP and still continue at least some aspect of your education.
I wish you the best …
crfullmoon – at 23:08 In answer to your questions and how it applies to our college:
See HBB @ 23;13 :-)
I’m in graduate school, so the stakes are a bit higher at this point than simply “graduating.” It’s more like…career! Easy to write a thesis from home, but not graduate courses.
ricewiki – at 00:25 --- What’s yer major? I hope it’s not typing, ‘cuz you’ve got that down pat!! :-) You’re way too fast for me…
ricewiki 00:25: as a grad student, on your way to getting a PhD i.e. becoming an independent researcher, you are expected to be able to educate yourself. Teaching is nice to have, but it shouldn’t be essential to you at this point. So actually you’re in a much better position than undergraduates. Get into the habit of, for each course you take, searching out relevant materials as early as you can. Books, papers - doesn’t have to be the very ones used in the course, if that can’t be determined (ask!), find things that seem relevant to you. Make sure you have a stack of stuff to read at home which is relevant to your subject. If there is a significant pandemic, enough to disrupt teaching, you’ll be OK. Either the university will be desperately trying to find a fair way to award credit to all students who can in any way demonstrate that they’ve earned it; or things will be even worse, the university will still not be functioning and then it’ll be on what you can do, not what paper you have, anyway. If there’s a 1968-style pandemic, teaching continues as usual, but you nevertheless choose to SIP and miss your courses, then yes, you’ll have a problem, but I assume you wouldn’t do that.
HillBilly Bill – at 22:56
Yes, I’m familiar with it. Of course it is a reality; it’s exactly how an epidemic works. I don’t believe anything I wrote contradicted it in anyway. Universities as a matter of course tend to have more international members than an average population, which naturally increases the risk if they have recently arrived, had family members visit, etc. That’s part of why the staff are required to get TB tests, among other things, even though it is not terribly common in our part of the world. That combined with the condensed population of young people is why it is an issue for us and is an extra area of exposure that we face which others may not.
Melanie – at 23:08
Thanks for the encouragement. Dh is not the type to panic but is also one who, when he sees what must be done, finds a way to do it, usually quietly and without a lot of fanfare. We would like to stay as far under the radar as we can with this whole thing, so that’s probably a good trait for him to have. :)
Mathematician
OK, I see what you mean…. just focus on getting the materials I need for my papers asap and then I can finish things up at home if I need to rather than going to all the classes. I didn’t think of it that way, but yes, some classes are more expendable than others (in terms of actually having to be there).
I am definitely planning to SIP on my own advice and hope university will make allowances for that sort of thing ahead of the pack of lemmings… if that makes sense.
I think we just have to prove to be right - if it turns out that we quarantined just ahead of everyone else, no problem. What worries me a bit (too?) is misjudging it - deciding to quarantine and it being a false alarm, or a mild pandemic such that life goes on normally. That’d be just about OK once, maybe, but it’d make it hard to react promptly the next time which might be real!
True true. It would be bad enough the first time, to be ridiculed and everything.
Mathematician,
Do you think that governments are not also covering this equation, knowing that if they screw it up what little credibility they have goes down the tubes?
Melanie, I don’t follow you. What equation do you mean? And where exactly would governments come into it? While they can shut universities if need be (like everything else, if necessary by emergency legislation - don’t know exactly what they’d need here), they can’t (in this country, the UK, at least) award degrees.
Anon married to another no name PhD – at 00:51 I didn’t mean to imply you were not cognizant of the dangers, please forgive me for stating the obvious. I was just running through my rationalization for SIP for about the thousandth tiime.
Mathematician, didn’t know you were from the UK. Do you teach by any chance?
anon_22: Yes, I’m an academic.
HillBilly Bill – at 09:28
Not a problem…some days it all makes me feel like moving to a ranch Montana and SIP right now, pandemic or not, lol. I keep telling dh that Montana State has a pretty campus. ;)
Mathematician - I think perhaps Melanie was referring to the gov’t making sure they didn’t erroneously telling people to quarrantine if it turned out to be unnecessary??
Anon (married…): possibly, but if so, she’s missing our point, which is just that it’s bad if we decide to quarantine and it turns out to be unnecessary. Obviously if the government had told everyone to quarantine universities would be shut.
Oh, thinking again (sorry, it’s One Of Those Days, and flu is not the reason) - I see that Melanie probably meant, and Anon etc. was probably trying to tell me she meant, simply that there’s nothing unique about university people having this dilemma. Everyone is afraid of acting too late, but at the same time afraid of acting too early because of the fact that if they do that once they won’t be believed a second time. OK, agreed! I didn’t mean to imply I was being original :-)
No, we won’t be original in having to deal with the panflu, but uni students and academics will be original for the unique nature of the situation they’re in (as will be everyone’s own unique situation original!)
Just goes back to the original problem/topic of the thread. I’d like to contact my university admin people but am still a bit “chicken” for fear of seeming like a woo-woo freak. I know, that’s bad of me… I’ll start searching their websites and see what else I can dig up. The situation is basically unprecedented and while there may be clauses in planning docs that allow for it (“act of God”), it’s an unwritten script. Better find out who’s gonna be writing it…
Rice - I’m not so swift at posting links yet but there’s a page on the pandemicflu.gov that is specifically designed to get colleges & universities thinking and planning. The PDF page is linked at http://www.pandemicflu.gov/plan/tab5.html Maybe you could forward it to TPTB on your campus with some very nice note about how the gov’t is urging all schools to prepare and you just wondered if there was any way you or the the grad student organization could help, etc>
Put it in terms of team-work and problem-solving (and possibly avoiding legal action from angry parents if their kids were left vulnerable while on an unprepared campus) rather than in confrontational or I-told-you-so phrasing. If you can get them moving in the right direction even a little bit, you could be responsible in part for saving lives. Good luck!
As a mom of a soon-to-be college student, I would not want her to stay at school. Realistically, there will not be enough people to help those that absolutely cannot get home, so those kids who can get home should be free to go. Unfortunately, the universities may pressure them into staying-grant money, scholarships etc. may be at risk. I have had online classes-when conducted appropriately they can be nearly as good as a course conducted in a classroom setting. Universities need to prepare for this-you couldn’t expect to put thousands of people on webStudy (or another similiar format) overnight. The system couldn’t handle that much traffic-assuming there is sufficient electricity-which we cannot be certain.
(How would even the exodus traffic go? Don’t regular moving-in days get pretty jammed? How wiil students get home, how much or little can they take with them, and, what will the nation’s travel/fuel/”surge” situation look like??)
Ricewiki- Suggest that yuou try the really low-key approach using the ABC movie as an entry- “I was watching the flu movie the other night and I started to wonder, with the government’s announcement on influenza, what preparations we have made here at our (school, company, etc.)” Play it lowkey and see what response you get. If they say, “gee, we haven’t done anything”, you might respond “well, it seems interesting, if you’d like my help I’d be willing to put some time into organizing a committee to look into it. After what President Bush said, we’d look pretty silly if we didn’t have a plan ready.” That works pretty well. You aren’t asking them to DO anything except write down a plan. You can draft all the help you need once you have the sanction……
Old thread - Closed to increase Forum speed.