I’ve been reading posts regarding safety and a number of people have dogs or suggest dogs. I’m wondering what will be done about contamination issues and fecal issues. I know my dog savors the smell of a dead animal. I can’t imagine having to disinfect him everytime he goes outside to go to the bathroom and presumably there will be contaminated animals outside.
Yea - may be time for crate training… at least a crate outside near the door that is easy to spray down…
Keep a short leash, I guess
Or a wired in dog run with a fibreglass roof. No birds or other animals, and it can be hosed down periodically with a chlorox solution.
If there is H5N1 circulating in the birds in your area when this h2h pandemic occurs, I wouldn’t let my dog or cat outside at all. Even if a dog is let out in a kennel, a bird could fly by and and drop feces close to the dog run. Or another dog, which has been allowed to run wild (and now has H5N1), could come by and infect the dog in the dog run. There is a much larger gamble if you let your dog outside even in a dog run compared to keeping him completely inside. I plan to have a large litter box for my dog and cat to use, and I plan to keep them completely inside. Large dog…large litter box!
Everyone on the posts seems concerned about bird flu being picked up from a pet going out in the yard and maybe stepping in bird feces. Maybe my understanding of this virus is all wrong, but aren’t we concerned about human-to-human transmission? If our pet goes out and wallows in bird poop, and assuming that the bird poop is infected with avian influenza, won’t that influenza that the bird has be of a type not easily transmissible to humans… ie, mostly transmissible bird-to-bird, even after the virus is being passed easily from human to human? I would think that it would be unlikely that a human would pass a now-mutated form back into the bird population. Can anyone answer this?
The wild birds carry the virus which has the polymophism to communicate the birds to humans. In other words, the birds will carry the virus that is also implicated in h2h transmission. You can read more about this at http://www.recombinomics.com/News/01130601/H5N1_Turkey_S227N_Fixed.html
Good point Kim. I have no intention of keeping my dogs in the house. We have a fenced backyard.
Honestly folks. I know you love your dogs and all, but they have no business being inside your house during a flu pandemic. If it often snowy and 15 degrees where you live (so that you can’t keep your dog outside), then you need to reconsider owning a dog. Maybe you could keep the dog in your garage. There are electric “hog warmer” devices to help keep outside animals warm, too. Just not in your house please. (IMHO)
when H5N1 goes d2d, it might go dog-fecal - dog-anal. So some dog-poop could carry H5N1 other dogs smelling on it or stepping in it and then stepping in the feeding dish might spread the desease. Even if dogs are immun, when the steets are contaminated by dead bodies etc. dogs can easily spread virus by just stepping around. It would be interesting to know, how many dogs, pigs,cats,foxes etc. already died of bird-flu. It could be that H5N1 goes first pig2pig before it goes h2h
maybe we should even provoke that pig2pig by feeding pigs with sick birds, so we can study the virus and maybe find a vaccine. Or even only try to better understand the pandemic risk by watching how many b2p cases are needed before the virus goes p2p efficiently. Is this being done ? In China maybe ?
Thanks gs. That brings up the point that there may be a bunch of dog fecal with long-living virus in it in the back yard.
and remember these flies which someone mentioned. They love to sit on feces and on marmelade-toast. So, preppers, more important than food are probably wire-lattices in front of your windows and double-door entries with desinfection and fly-killing zones. Hmm, moskitos fortunately can’t spread these viruses, I read. But there are beagles,cockroaches,bees,ants….
April: My dogs live outside in all weather. They have two insulated weather tight houses. I go running with them in the low teens, they love it. Most larger breeds are fully capable of living outside. And yes, there may be some danger from birds in a pandemic. Your far greater danger will be other people. Make reasonable preps and get on with your life. Cease with the obsessing.
Cats should live inside anyway. Dogs should be allowed outside only under voice or other control anyway (whether they live outside or not). You are far more likely to kill your pet by giving it the flu than to catch it from them. Instead, how about making plans to care for them if they get sick and stop thinking of new ways to abuse your responsibility to them. So many of you are acting as though every cubic inch of the outdoors will be teaming with h5n1 virii when you know that YOU are going to catch it from a fellow homo sapiens.
when the newspaper reports that dogs might be carriers, then angry neighbors will be shooting at your dog. I think, this happened in 1918
Dogs WILL be carriers, after YOU infect them. I wonder if people are prepared for the number of family furmembers they may lose.
Kim makes a good point. Our current flu, has it transmitted from animal, dog and cat to us and visa versa? I didn’t think so. But many animals are sick and dying from flu. As a layman, I find it unclear.
Far Hills, I’d like to know more about the flu currently circulating in the dog population. I think it may have come from horses? I don’t think I have read where it has ever passed to a human, and I don’t know if it was confirmed to be influenza. Perhaps it is a different virus. (I don’t have any dogs so I haven’t followed it.)
Keep your pets out of trouble and you will be more likely to infect them than the other way around.
gs:
Maybe, but not necessarily on purpose.
China has a long history of what is called “integrated fish farming”.
Basically, the way it works is this: pigsties, poultry coops, and pens for ducks and geese are constructed above the fish ponds. Fresh manure thus enter the ponds directly, hence avoiding energy losses due to processing of manure and transportation (slurry from biogas fermentation is also used). The fish benefit from undigested nutrients in the animal wastes, as well as from the resultant algal blooms. Sounds good from an economic standpoint, but it’s an epidemiological nightmare. The real problem begins when waste from the fish processing is fed back to the pigs or other animals.
Be careful which way you point that thing, gs; that’s a dangerous instrument you’ve got there.
I too heard there is a connection between the horses and dogs. I was talking to my son who has a horse farm, but he visits it rarely, my cell phone was so bad I couldn’t hear half he said. Need a new cell phone, this one is pretty, but never seems to get good reception.
I’m wondering if I’m missing something in regards to the recombinomics citation above. According to the site,
“This species restriction monitors another change, PB2 E627K, which was also limited to mammalian isolates prior to Qinghai Lake in May, 2005. In Vietnam, Thailand, and Hong Kong, this change was only found in mammalian isolates and was associated with poor outcomes. However, it was detected in all 16 wild bird isolates from Qinghai Lake and appears to be fixed in the migratory bird population, because all subsequent isolates have had the change. This change is of concern because it allows H5N1 to grow efficiently at 34 C, the temperature of a human nose in the winter. The large number of cases and clusters in Turkey suggest S227N has also become fixed in the bird population, although the wording in the WHO announcement is somewhat unclear on the number of changes found in the receptor binding domain. The description indicates one change is S227N, but no details are given for additional changes” My interpretation of this is that the necessary changes that allow the virus to infect humans are “fixed” in the bird population—meaning, the birds carry the virus which is capable of H2H transmission. In other words, if a bird dies of BF and your dog comes in contact with it (or it’s feces)the virus will contain the necessary mutation for H2H transmission. Am I wrong about this? This is why I’m worried about the dog.
the virus is not capable of h2h but assumedly closer to one which can mutate an evil h2h-virus when infecting humans. The human who contacts the sick bird or the sick chicken or dog which in turn had contacted the sick bird can get the virus. If many dogs or pigs or horses become infected with that virus, the virus could mutate into a more dangerous form inside the pig-population and then jump to humans. So infected mammals increase the risk of a pandemic. (as I see it)
I apologize if I double up on above comments, I did not read this entire thread,just the more recent posts. However, my understanding is that we would need to keep our dogs inside during outbreaks because they could contract it. There is another thread here somewhere about the zoos and how they are preparing to combat this as well as be front-runners in recognizing it. There are aslo news stories about the zoos in Thailand and the animals that were susceptible to the BF. Cats had a 100% mortality rate. All the animals that ate infected poultry became infected. I don’t think there are many animals that are immune to BF. I am not a scientist, but these are my observations from news articles and commentaries here at fluwikie. I have many animals and currently my daughter is waiting for a baby cockatiel to hatch so she can raise it from birth. I am nervous about adding a bird indoors while watching for the BF. Sounds absolutely STUPID to buy a bird at this time!
We have in-depth coverage of Dog Bird Flu issues at the Dog Bird Flu Information Center. http://virtualpet.com/birdflu/dogs
April-the dogs are in the house to keep from needing a gun!( Or alarm system, for that matter) And not just for flu, either. When one of my less reputable neighbors asked if they bite I just said my attorney told me not to say anything except to keep the sign posted (beware of dogs). Of course they have never bitten anybody! But I am keeping them close.
I have asked this before but did not get any comments…How can you litter box or paper train an old dog who is mostly inside but has been taken out to “go” all thier life?
If I can’t have my dogs then who care’s what happens. They are my Kids. Period. Might as well just shoot me now.
Malachi- start with taking a piece of newspaper outside to the place they usually do their business.Then start actually praising them for ‘putting it’ on the paper. Gradually move it toward the house. Eventually put fresh papers in the house with a piece of their soiled paper on top. Do make sure its not too close to where you or they eat or sleep. A great idea is to use a bathroom- and you use the same one for awhile so they learn the purpose of that room. Expect mistakes and be patient.
http://www.fao.org/ag/againfo/subjects/en/health/diseases-cards/avian_cats.html …”General Information
Role of cats in virus transmission Research has shown that domestic cats may die from H5N1 virus.
Also horizontal transmission has been proven.
However, it is unlikely that cats play a role in the natural transmission cycle of H5N1 viruses. Cat infections occasionally occur in association with H5N1 outbreaks in domestic or wild birds, e.g. when cats feed on infected birds. Experimental/infected cats shed the virus via the respiratory and intestinal tract, and may therefore transmit the virus to other cats. Naturally infected cats are thus in theory, able to spread the virus
In areas where H5N1 Infected wild birds are reported it can not be excluded that cats become infected. Although most wild birds infected are waterfowl, not normally the species cats interact with, H5N1 is potentially infectious to numerous other bird species and it can not be ruled out that passerines or pigeons which do interact with cats get infected
In areas where poultry is infected with H5N1 there is a risk that cats become infected with H5N1 through contact with infected poultry or their faeces. Anecdotal reports support the notion that contact with infected poultry (faeces and eating infected carcasses) forms a source of infection for cats. Cats probably have little or no contribution to the spread of the disease because the number of infected poultry is much higher than the number of infected cats; poultry shed much more virus than cats. Nevertheless, cats may play a role in the spread of the virus to other animals. Report to the local veterinary authority any evidence of significant animal mortality both wild and domestic.
Theoretically there is a possibility that cats transmit infection to humans. However, given the risk that cats become infected with HPAI is low, the risk to human infection is therefore limited.
The role of stray cats Due to their greater mobility, stray cats could spread the disease into new areas. If infected, stray cats may become a source of contamination to poultry and mammals, including humans.
The role of other mammals The ability of catching the H5N1 virus is not restricted to cats. Reports show infection in tigers, leopards and civets. Also dogs and pigs may become infected with the virus. Given the broad host spectrum of the H5N1virus, the possibility that also other wild or domesticated mammals including seals, mustelidae or furbearing animals, become infected by contacting infected animals is present. All carnivores could become infected through eating infected poultry or infected wild birds.
Recommendations Areas where H5N1 HPAI has been diagnosed or is suspected in poultry or wild birds:
Report to the local veterinary authority any evidence of significant bird mortality both wild and domestic
Be especially vigilant for any dead or sick cats and report such findings to the local vet
Make sure contact between cats and wild birds or poultry (or their faeces) is avoided and/or keep cats inside
If cats bring a sick or dead bird inside the house, put on plastic gloves and dispense of the bird in plastic bags for collection by local veterinary animal handlers
Keep stray cats outside the house and avoid contact with them
If cats show breathing problems or nasal discharge, a veterinarian should be consulted
Do not touch or handle any sick-looking or dead cat (or other animal) and report to the authorities
Wash hands with water and soap regularly and especially after handling animals and cleaning their litter boxes or coming in contact with faeces or saliva
Dogs can only be taken outside the premises if kept restraint
Do not feed any water birds
Disinfect (e.g. with bleach 2–3 %) cages or other hardware with which sick animals have been transported or been in contact with. Wash animal blankets with soap or any other commercial detergent
Information for veterinarians
Avian influenza in other animal species Hosts: Wildbird hosts for H5N1 in order of importance are probably Anatidae (ducks, geese, swans), Charadriiform (gulls and shorebirds) and Passeriform (sparrows and starling). Lately swans have been found infected with H5N1 in a number of European countries (e.g. Austria, Germany, France and Romania, etc.). In poultry, both aquatic and terrestrial species become infected but the virus is particularly aggressive in chicken.
Carnivores: can become infected, after consuming infected poultry that succumbed to the disease. To date no H5N1 clinical cases of dogs have been reported but in an unpublished study carried out in 2005 by the National Institute of Animal Health in Bangkok, researchers tested 629 village dogs and 111 cats in the Suphan Buri district of central Thailand. Out of these, 160 dogs and 8 cats had antibodies to H5N1, indicating that they were infected with the virus or had been infected in the past. An eqiune virus has recently shown up in dogs. This inter-species re-assortment is not uncommon for type A influenza viruses.
Pigs are known “„mixing vessels” for different influenza virus subtypes and therefore present a risk for avian influenza virus re-asserting with a human influenza virus into a strain more apt to infect humans. Regarding the present H5N1 subtype, studies conducted in pigs in Vietnam yielded 8 animals out of the 3000 investigated pigs seropositive. None of the animals had any clinical signs and it was not possible to isolate any virus
Ruminants appear at lower risk. So far no cattle have been identified as carrying any influenza type A virus. Horses are susceptible to Influenza viruses but so far mainly H3N8 have been identified. Regular vaccination is carried out. Experimentally mice can be infected but their role in natural transmission has not been established.
Public health implications Humans and other mammals need to come in contact with large amounts of virus to become infected. In case of an infection with H5N1, mammals and humans apparently only shed small amounts of virus, contributing to reduced risk of spread among themselves. Recent data from experimentally infected cats’ evidenced extra-respiratory replication of the H5N1 and excretion of virus in faeces of cats need to be taken into consideration. Hygienic practices need to be re-enforced, frequent washing of hands with water and soap especially after handling animals, cleaning cat litter boxes as well as before and after the preparation of food.
Occupational health and safety Veterinarians and their staff are specifically at risk of coming into contact with infected cats, in case the disease becomes more widespread among this species. Normally, veterinarians and their staff engage in frequent hand washing and disinfect examination tables and instruments to reduce the general risk of disease transmission among their patients and to protect the persons present in the consultation room from eventual exposure.”…
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