So, we have:
This thread is to discuss simple masks: masks that might be “built” by people, maybe by local industries, maybe by international sponsors etc, and which might be useful in reducing transmission.
Yes, we know we don’t want to stop people from washing their hands, keeping social distance and coughing in their elbow. A bad mask might stop people from taking the other precautions, and nobody wants that to happen.
So maybe “simple masks” should work better as part of a “simple prevention kit”, together with educational material that can be translated into as many languages as needed, etc. Educational material would also have a “trainer’s booklet”.
Simple masks, if possible, might have a instructable page showing how to make them.
This has immediate use and value at stage 3 where there’s only bird flu and no pandemic flu (yet). Masks can be made, deployed and tested. (Or maybe not.)
This thread is for us to discuss how to make this happen, or (of course) to find (and overcome?) shortcomings in this idea. We may also be able to help refine the design, test it further, etc.
The space is open!
Even the best masks have been shown in research to be only partially effective, and probably for only short-periods of time also (and there is the danger of infecting yourself when you remove it).
Self-made masks would likely have only psycholgical value, although there is some discussion of wearing a surgical-type mask OVER a class-3 mask to prevent surface contamination.
I’m starting to look at pandemics as a natural event, with natural reactions. We want to prepare so we may act, and guide if we can, with the best possible reactions. Specifically, in a pandemic, most people will move around, and many will want to use some kind of mask, anything that makes them feel they’re doing the best they can to protect themselves and their loved ones and their communities.
If there are not enough high-tech masks (which will be the rule all over the World), then what is the best practical thing?
I think it boils down to (self)education: the mask not as a prevent-all but as one more element in the slow-down strategy, together with hand-hygiene, social distance, asynchronous transfer, etc. (A handful of memes.)
The value of the slow-down strategy is easily explained: at any one time there would be more healthy people taking care of less ill. Whatever the CFR may be, this has value.
On the other hand, masks are not just masks, but making them, learning to use them, making them acceptable, and a whole lot of other issues.
We could explore those issues here?
So, to start with the easiest part first, What are the dangers in such masks? What are the “solutions” for such dangers?
Some (attempts at) solutions:
I mean, we have (some of) the knowledge. Let’s put ourselves in the shoes (or non-shoes) of people in a pandemic, and make the best of available knowledge and resources. Appropriate technology, they call it.
Let’s do some brainstorming around this, and build on each other’s ideas. Then we can distill whatever it is that shows some value, and offer that for further refinement!
We could also look at benefits of masks:
Some of these benefits (and problems) are only “potential”. We might find ways to confirm them. This is just exploration here, as wide and as far as we can!
FWIW.
Been thinking about this for some time. What about the new fabric that you can’t spill anything on? Can’t remember what it’s called, but you’ve all seen the commercials. It’s made from some nano-technology application. If it’s stain proof, and sheds any spills, I’m thinking it might be just the thing. I think a band of vaseline might enhance the seal, but it wouldn’t come off easily—would this just not work? Would the virus impregnate the vaseline?
Just thinking.
TTin AdaOK, are you thinking of fabric that has recieved a coating of Teflon?
I would think the best fabric would be Kleenex. I heard somewhere that they are actually pretty damn good as a filter. Maybe you could use some kleenex folded and held in place by a reqular dust mask instead of a resperator.
How can that be tested? There’s a scientific jargon chapter on that on http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol12no06/05-1468.htm and maybe someone might contact the authors and suggest that we work here openly (or somewhere else in a closed fashion, but I think we want more eyeballs), maybe with the idea to make it into http://www.instructables.org
I mean, the idea would be to build and test something that works better than other things, then help people make them for themselves and for others (small businesses? in Africa?) and then include that into a package with safety instructions (how to sneeze and cough properly, how to keep social distance, etc).
If the “how to make them” is open (wikipedia, “open design”), then we can have a “better than nothing” protection. I believe we gotta try our best on this one.
TTin AdaOK, NewGuy, others, how do we get this going?
Maybe we can simply look into the testing procedure and design a simple way to test the masks? Then we would know more, and we would be able to test this and other designs. Dem suggested bandanas long time ago - maybe bandanas + kleenex? Could we test that? Could we test one, then two, then more layers of kleenex?
Also, how do we improve “fit”?
Divide and conquer. Work together and make a difference. Make yourself a motto.
We will also want to focus on googles - but that’s easier. One problem at a time!
Sorry, I meant “goggles”. Hehehe!
I’ve been thinking about this for a while also, though not too deeply. I haven’t had a chance to cruise my local hardware store yet, but Im wondering about filters that are used in HVAC, and what sort of filtering ability they have (HEPA filters?). Can they be fitted into cartridges used in masks? Pry open the little cartridge, cut out a circle of HVAC -or whatever the best possible material is- and reassemble it into the cartridge? What is the best possible material?
Another thing I was wondering, if it’s possible to treat a mask with Lysol or disinfectant somehow. I wouldn’t want to spray Lysol in my face while wearing a mask, but if the surface of the mask could could be treated with something would that work? Maybe put it in a small box and spray it before putting it on. But how could you wear that without making yourself sick from fumes?
I think we should choose two differnet strategies, If the entire populations had accsess to simple washable cloth masks, it would not proteckt them directly, but inderectly if everybody used it, it would surley have an effect. Stopping coughs aerosols and touching of face is very important. This mask would not need the strctly regime in handling since the wearer is only infecting him self.. The useage of this mask could be socialy pushed by shops, public transport etc, giving them away to their customers, and then after a certain period everbody would have a small supply of reusable masks, The proffesional masks would then also not “stand out” in the crowd as well. The western world still have plentyfull of garment industry that could produce this masks.
I think the largest problem on creating such a habbit in the population are our own “greed” for 100% safety, then ending up beeing our own enemy.. Even the feeling of a degree of safety would benefit the soceity. Its all about beeing honest about it, it will only protect the wearer directly by lets say 10–30% but its inderect protection would be the goal.
Imagine poorer countries dooong this, and succesfully damping the speed of spread, while hightech 100% safty conserned populations in the rich countries ending up with less protection, just because of the fear of “not good enough” or the lack of “regulations and verifiengs” … that would be very ironic…
Satago. my chosen desinfectant would be pure alcohohol,, If filter contains paper its more destroyed by a water solution than alchool.. Isopropanol (rubbing alchohol) dryes in sekunds.. If the filter is entyerly made of plastc, i realy dont belive alcohol will degrade it, most thermoplastics are completly inert in contact with alchohol.
I dont know the Lysol chemical, i know its listed on wikipedia, and it looks like a strong chemikal..
Hepa filter may be used to make homade masks, but is propbably only P1 standard (european). In combination with other fabrics you could maybe be able to create a washable filter that equals N95, Adding some essentials oils that is known to kill viruses could also add on the effect, and maybe using fine copper/ silver / brass mesh could add on, but how to tell? I dont know how fast metals kills viruses, and if moisture is needed in the proces, anyone? … I am just trovhing out thoughts..
I know this does not specifically come under this heading, but I wonder what plans are in place to secure national treasures such as works of art, transcripts, artefacts and other items of national and historical importance? If our public buildings are closed and people are too sick or not willing to come into work, how will they be protected from looters, accidental and environmental damage etc? They may only be material items at the end of the day but are important nonetheless.
maybe a chance for Egypt to get some missing artifackts back?, or maybe Irak… ;-) I gues a mail or a telephone to your favouritt collection could do the trick? All prep is a good prep
Urdar-Norge - I agree fully. Will read more later, and try to think of ways to make this happen. We need tiny efforts here and there.
well Lugon, if you supply the aprociate text, and the corect english definitions (and ideas for..) fabrics I will make a illustrated guide on DIY “simple mask” my mail is: urdar at fluwiki.no , or we may use this tread. Anyone with proposals for fabrics that has a very tight, and mayby “fussy” teksture? that is easaly awailable? I guess that a fabric that let little light trhu is better than one that does let thru much (not the color…) what about towels?… and what is it called thefabric that looks like silk, but is plastic?
Paper materials are maybe good, but then its a disposable, and that is not very helpfull in this contekst. Idea is to create simple cloth masks, washable, one for everyday in the week or more, that protects a much as possible, and has as main purpose to prevent spread out..
Let’s not forget fashionable. People want to recognise each other for acceptability.
Will do. It’s one of the things I want to look at. Can’t tell when. Glad if someone else starts it.
Here’s some masks “styles” during SARS, http://tinyurl.com/pfng7
I’m trying to find the site again that I used for a cotton mask pattern, I’ll add that to this string asap. I remember it recommended 4 layers of 100% cotton with 300 count threads. Since I sew, I went to the local Goodwill store and bought all the 300 ct white cotton bedsheet I could find. Not having time to make masks now, I just washed them on hot/hot with bleach, dried them and carefully packed them in ziplock bags for mask production later. Gotta find that mask pattern!
Corrie
I am not sure if this has been posted before…. If it has, it was not recently.
Homemade Masks and their efficiency.
a pattern, and a guide made in a easy to understand graphic design with some explanation tekst on the subjekt was my idea. I will experiment with copying the shape of a regular M3 mask or a standard surgical mask. If three is some patterns allready it would be very nice. I will also try it out, with different fabrics.. to see if i discover some factors.. Maybe when this guide is finished, we could ask a lab to test it for free.? To see hov effiecent it is.. Will need english, legal and scientific type of tekst help on this….. :)
Stretching a bit now…wondering if nose plugs would somehow be a secondary barrier after the mask, or just rather than. I guess I’m thinking of a rather brief situation, like moving an infected patient or something. You wouldn’t want to limit your breathing to the extent that you can’t function, of course…bt a piece of duct tape or so over your mouth so you don’t open it…and some sort of “nose only” filter?
Stretching a bit more….does anyone know much about scuba diving, and how that apparatus could be modified? I don’t know much about scuba diving, (other than it’s something you do underwater!) but does the line from your breather just go right to the tank? How long is it? Can this be exploited somehow?
corrientempe - would adding a few of those “breathe right” nasal strips help make a snugger fit? Or even sewing in some wire to where the nose bridge is?
FloridaGirl - almost the same link is up at the beginning of this topic. Your “hidden” link takes us to a pdf file, which is nice to print out and share. If you don’t want to “hide” it behind a “tinyurl” then please use something like this: [[http://www.fluwikie2.com|this links to fluwikie forum]]
thanks!
We need to look into how to check the efficiency of these things.
that was very interesting..
“We showed that a hand-fashioned mask can provide a good fit and a measurable level of protection from a challenge aerosol.”
“Even if N95 filtration is unnecessary for avian influenza, N95 fit offers advantages over a loose-fitting surgical mask by eliminating leakage around the mask.”
“Quality commercial masks are not always accessible, but anecdotal evidence has showed that handmade masks of cotton gauze were protective in military barracks and in healthcare workers during the Manchurian epidemic”
But the design is not very “fashionable” Using rubber bands would help on that. They are easaly availible in most countries. This report also makes norwegan pankomitees statement that “ masks dont help” look like a direct lie..
my idea then would be to have one outer layer of “plastic silk” (term?) one layer of 100% cotton tshirt, one layer of towel (to create a fluffy thicknes to improve fit, and one layer of tshirt again.. and then a finaly layer of “plastic silk for comfort.. That would not be as good as 8 layers of tshirt would it? or maybe better? This study was based on whats awailible for a soldier in field (tshirts).. we have more materials.. and rubber bands.. thoughts?
check out this tiny url. http://tinyurl.com/p5zoe At the bottom of the page, lots of interesting reading on the page with pictures on how to make head cap and an apron along with the cotton surgical mask. It gives measurements, and pictures of how to cut out mask. Would still have to deal with making a better fit around the nose etc, but is a starting point.
Pat in Wa - I try to avoid use of tinyurl as it gives us a hidden link + uses an extra service that might break (tinyurl), instead, i used:
[[http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/vhfmanual/annex1-5.htm|click here]]
to get “click here”.
and yes, that’s a good page too - hadn’t seen it.
So, based on what Urdar-No is saying, we might want to make it explicit that masks may be worn to avoid infecting others. So it’s a sign of good citizenship, then. Social pressure to have them on in public.
And of course, if I’m protected from others then I won’t carry the infection home.
In some communities it might work. And they’ll be able to tell the world: look, we are 2 thousand people and on the first week half of us used masks, and after that we all decided to use masks. (This is speculation.)
fit + filter
two different issues
testability
I can’t see trying to breathe through 8 layers of anything and be active, say, in a situation where you’re running through a grocery store. IMHO, one or two very efficient layers are going to be better than numerous layers.
yes.. its allabout the thresshold soscialy.. on one certain point wearing a mask wil be “soscialy” forced.. (that is if the governments dont sabotage it,,)
one color on inside and one on outside is important I see.. Fit can be improved from the t shirt mask design,, Filter.. if 8 layers of tshirt is good enough, then we may go for that.
I guess that fluffyness is a factor for the fit.. this could be done by cotton (will be flat after washed, or a piece of towel, that has the thick wowen style.. I just compared it, look to the strong light thru some layers of white tshirt, compare it with a tovel.. the tovels is totaly differnt constructed and dont let light thru, this is equal a labyrint for particles…. And the “sateng” (?) is the thinest and most close wowen fabric that is comon availible,, If the goal is to create a very good “surgical mask” to prevent spread out, then it wouldent hurt if it also was just as good filter as in the article.. that will be a bonus..
Okay, never mind on the pattern I found, the links in the preceeding posts are far better (you guys are sooo way ahead of me). I say that the decorative mask(s) could be just one layer with a little velcro tab to facilitate washing and (for women…) changing colors based on ones outfit (as if that matters!).
Satago 18:59: Yes, I was even thinking about a small piece of florist’s wire, embedded in the finishing ribbon (bias tape 2 or 3 fold) on the nose section. My main concern is rust when you wash them. If one quickly dried the masks (hot dryer), you could probably avoid the rust, otherwise I would suggest electrical wire that is coated in plastic or rubber? What do you think?
Let me ask an incredible dumb question: Why will a mask be more effective in keeping a sick person from infecting others, but a mask is not as effective in keeping a well person insulated from the sick? I’m not a scientist and I already accept the verdict, but would like to understand the transimission mechanism.
By the way, I’m happy to be home from work now, sipping a margarita and starting the long weekend. I have a long list of “prep” to dos, but that can start tomorrow.
(taking my margarita to the porch to consider the heat - it is 102 degrees you know, a fairly pleasant day in Arizona).
Corrie
the typical paper “surgical mask” like your dentist use, is not for his protection, but yours. It dont have the N100 or N95 filter capasity to protect the wearer. The purpose is to stop droplets flying out when talking and coughing. Look at it as i hankerschif constantly in place.. My intention is to try and create a popular/cool/easy way for everyone to make their own of this, one for each day. Made of fabric not paper, that can be washed in hot water and reused. The hole idea of disposables are the thing that got us into this mess in the first place.. The numbers needed is enourmous. And as we know, the N95 masks are not awailble for everyone, and they are expensive..
If a cloth mask is also “near N95″ quality, but you dont need to take the responsibility of such a claim, then there is a added bonus..
It will all stand on the numbers of people using it, my guess is that it will be a “socialy forced” etikette.. And it may be promoted by shops, and other public services like busses or subways. Just like they did in china during SARS…
corrientempe: 38´C!? wow, lucky bastard :) here in the arctic its only 5´C (51F) and its 3:30 in the night,, my redvine is getting empty and so is my head :) An electrikcal copper wire is a good idea.
bump.. for cooperative thinking..
I am inserting a quote from another thread: 03 May 2006 Medical Librarian, Back in Texas – at 16:26 Abstract of an article found on Pubmed/Medline
1: J Infect Chemother. 2006 Apr;12(2):73–9. Related Articles, Links
Inactivation of influenza A virus by gentian violet (GV) and GV-dyed cotton cloth, and bactericidal activities of these agents.
Nagayama A.
Department of Microbiology and Immunology, School of Medicine, Fukuoka University, 7–45–1 Nanakuma, Fukuoka, 814–0180, Japan, nagayama@fukuoka-u.ac.jp.
Recently we have heard warnings of an outbreak of a highly pathogenic avian influenza virus (H5N1). Although, to prevent such infections we must prepare anti-viral drugs and type-specific vaccines against influenza, we need various simple and effective protection methods, such as the use of face masks for public health. Also, in any consideration of bacterial infections, methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA), vancomycin-resistant Enterococci (VRE), and multidrug-resistant Pseudomonas aeruginosa (MDRP) also pose serious concerns which must be addressed. I examined the antiviral activity of gentian violet (GV) and GV-dyed cloth against the influenza A (H1N1) virus. Time-kill studies were carried out, and the virus titer was determined based on the 50% tissue culture infective dose (TCID(50)). The minimum inhibitory concentrations (MICs) of GV against bacteria were also determined, and the killing activities of the GV-dyed cloth were judged from viable cell counts. GV immediately killed the influenza A virus and this was confirmed by electron microscopy. Moreover, cloth dyed with a combination of GV and copper showed not only excellent antiviral activity but also prominent bactericidal activities.
PMID: 16648946 [PubMed - in process] ======================= This seems important to me. If gentian-violet dyed cloth inactivated the virus, then the 8 layers in the t-shirt mask might be reduced to a couple layers with provision for a gentian-violet impregnated filter (this because you wouldn’t want the gentian violet layer against your skin, and you would probably want to have the ability to replace the filter without replacing the rest of the mask. Since there is no skin contact, the gentian violet could be technical grade, not medical grade. And I know all the yadda yadda stuff about it not being up to NIOSH standards. But driving across the Los Angeles Basin yesterday makes me think that we have to have _something_ to offer people.
Does anyone have a link to a source for gentian-violet cloth (re: WetDirts 12:49 post) so I can determine availability and cost? Sounds like a good “insert” to reusables.
corrientempe – at 12:59 Simpler than dirt: GV stains like crazy. Get a stainless steel stockpot, a white t-shirt, and a gram of GV. Boil water, put in a cup of salt like the Rit dye package says. Drop in shirt, soak in dye. Take the whole thing and pour it into the washing machine, and run through the rinse cycle. Pull out with hotdog tongs and hang to dry.
Did I mention it was messy? maybe bleach will get the spots off the stove.
Note added in proof. The RIT dye people would be an obvious place to start in getting the dye out to the public. Print mask construction instructions on the cardboard box.
bumped - has anyone tried contacting the authors of the paper, or making such masks themselves, or looking at how to measure performance?
If someone looks at the contact data, I can contact them. Small steps!
I was thinking about trying to make a surgical style mask from a cloth diaper. They are already thicker in the middle than the sides of the cloth. If you make a seam around 4 corners, and add elastic etc. it will be more form fitting. I would then sew some ties on the four edges. Even thinking about sewing a pocket in the inside of the mask to fill with whatever filter material sounds most efficient.
I use to make surgical masks for mission hospitals in India. We used high quality cotton and made the kind with folds in them. Make the folds, turn over the sides, attach 4 ties, and sew along each side. You could take a disposable one and take it apart. How much these masks will help is for others to debate.
By the way, dentists wear the masks so they don’t inhale the particles while drilling.
Bump. Has anyone made one of these “simple” masks and compared it with an N95 mask? Most commercial patterns for sewing have different cutting lines for different sizes. If we can work out a pattern for a fabric mask that can be washed/disinfected and used again that might be more effective in the long run than a bunch of disposable masks that we run out of.
I have made about a dozen masks from both diaper materials, and from terrycloth. I made them in adult, and childrens sizes. The masks are surgical style with the elastic around the four edges. They fit well, if you make the elastic tight enough around the top part, it fits fairly tight across the nose, but it stays fairly close to your eyes. They are roomy enough to put a N95 mask on underneath.
The problem is the terrycloth is only one layer, and is very hot and uncomfortable to wear for any lenth of time, just like a N95 is. The diaper cloth one is a little easier to breathe through. The diaper cloth one has a pocket sewn inside to add filter material, maybe even one of those antibacterial tissues that are made now. With added layers for protection, they would be too hard to breathe through I am sure.
Link on Gentian violet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentian_violet
My intention is to create a simple manual for a simple and easy mask that may be washed in hot water. How will this go togheter with Gentian violet? And how available is it?
To keep focus on this strategic, it is important to have in mind. 1, it main purpose is to prevent spread out. 2 If protection is raised for the wearer in comparison with a simple surgical mask or a cloth mask, this is only considered a bonus. 3 it has to be made by easaly avilable materals. 4 it has to be washable. (no paper or other disposable products as raw material. 5 its level of sucsess is complety dependent on a the amounts of people using it, (or other masks like dispoables or N95)
any ideas?
http://www.ritdye.com is a brand ( I dit not know..) anyone living in the US that may send them a email, asking if any (and which) color actualy contain Gentian violet the chemical? Datasheets would be the best.) Many modern colors are synthetic, and may no longer contain the orignal pigment used that gave them their name.. ( I gues the virus dont die of fear when its sees a spesific shade of violet.. (unless its the violet from hitchhikers guide maybe..)
Blurose: do you know any illustrated guide to the masks you described? And is there any ways you could think of, that would improve their fit?
If comercial cloth dye is in fact Gentian violet, what then about the fixating salt? Could it destroy the pigments antiviral effekt? How was it done in the study..?
just remember that the outside of ANY mask is considered contaminated and a potential source of self contamination if touched or otherwise not donned and doffed? correctly after an infectious exposure. This is true for any PPE. Wearing PPE can provide a false sense of security if not used with strict technique. Read up on the CDC and WHO sites re PPE. I have seen some good illustrated manuals for this very issue somewhere on those sites.
Please don’t laugh, but after 9/11 and the anthrax scare, I started taping coffee filters together, double layers, and taped around the edges with the tape extending so it could stick to the vace and form a seal. I tried to get my kids and husband to carry one in their pocket when riding the subway. Hard to breathe through though.
I wonder, are most odors also tiny particles, so can we judge the effectiveness by how a mask filters out odors, like cat box, smoke, onion, etc? If so, I found that an easy way to get enough air is to put on a bandana that tucks into the shirt, so that you’re really breathing the air up through your clothes instead of through the bandana, or mask. I guess that would not be good if you were walking over spit globs on the sidewalk at the time. But in a crowded place with people breathing, like a bus or trolley, I would rather do that than breath other’s exhalations. And maybe add a few spritzes of herbal vinegar, which may also keep others at a distance.
Another thought: maybe several layers of puffy gauzy material (by “plastic silk” do you mean nylon, or polyester?) that may baffle the particles without stopping the air, like chiffon or something, or even cheap silk, would stop a percent of the viri if not all. I like the direction of this thread. We shouldn’t be helplessly waiting for outside technology to step in. My kids used to wrap a t-shirt around their heads Ninja-style when cleaning up the dog mess or dusty basement. Something is better than nothing! Good idea, Lugon.
Oh, it was me in those last 2 posts. Lorelle
I haven’t been able to get the Teflon fabric thought out of my head since it was mentioned awhile ago. I’m going to try to find out more about it’s suitability for this purpose. If it looks promising I’m going to buy a small quantity of it and try using it as an outer layer when constructing some cloth masks to try out.
Good point Lorelle! We can experiment with different materials and designs for the masks, but how to go about testing them properly? What’s the right method and criteria?
A thought about teflon and other synthetics…I remember a study about cutting boards (bear with me) and whether wood or plastic is more sanitary. People at first thought plastic, then found out the wood, because it’s porous and dries more thoroughly, had less of the germs (salmonella etc.) after a time period than the plastic, which had little scratches in it that kept the stuff damper longer and harbored the bad little buggers. Can this possibly apply to fabrics too? Or maybe Teflon on just the outer layer as MaMa suggests so droplets roll off.
I think you’re all trying to re-invent the wheel. Pick up a box of N-95′s. . . PLEASE. You’ll be using masks that have been tested and certified. Is this really something you want to be a DIY project???
Is gentian violet used to treat skin fungus and diaper rashes in years gone by?
I used N95′s working on my insulation project up in the attic. I could take 1–2 hours wearing one (this was in the winter), but then would have to come down, take the mask off, drink a lot of water, and cool down for 30 min or so. Wearing one all day, especially trying to do any physical work, would be really tough. If I tried to use commercial masks that were contaminated and had to be disposed of each time I removed one, I’d go through at least 5 per day.
Forgot to add a Alpine plant.
Lorelle: and others propsing bandanas and scarfs. I think this will also prevent some of the spread OUT from a person who is infected. But its a lousy way to protect yourself. You will have a hard time deciding witch part of the scarf is infected or not.. So you would actualy end up vacuming the air for small amounts of viruses, and then ending up putting the lot of them right into your face..
Chiffon?, yes maybe, we call it “sateng” very popular amoung the asians for dresses.. It is very fine treads, and its very smooth. And not very expensive.. The idea was that the outer layer to be made of a smooth fabric, just to prevent klogging of dust. Then the other layers are the oposite, to catch the virus in the mesh.
Ma Ma: the teflon, is it easaly available in some kind of product? For what purpose is it for? and is it expensive? I thibk that if a fabric is smooth, it will not catch the viruses.. but if the pores ar every narrov but plenty it could be usefull..
One question again: is regulary towels in the US made of 100% cotton?, like it is here?
SCW AZ – at 16:40
I think you’re all trying to re-invent the wheel. Pick up a box of N-95′s. . . PLEASE. You’ll be using masks that have been tested and certified. Is this really something you want to be a DIY project???
Most people all over the world will not be able to “pick up a box of N95″. Even in countries where they are available now, there will not be enough for most people most of the time. Something that’s not perfect but that allows us to “slow each local outbreak down a bit” will help us deal with it better. Yes, we need to add a page with instructions on how to cough properly etc.
And it’s not necessarily a DIY thing. We can have t-shirt factories turned into simple-masks factories, adding to the “war effort” - yes, you get what you pay for, maybe. But 50% protection for 80% population is better than 100% protection for 1% population - or whatever the figures may be - hope you get the idea. I mean, it’s better even for the 1% of the population who have plenty of N95! Yes, because they get less disruption.
We need to work harder on this - or perhaps just smarter.
Also, who says we can’t have “simple, yet certified masks”?
SCW AZ: I think you should read the whole tread. :) notice the part: there is not ENOUGH mask for EVERYBODY EVERYDAY.. And we are not discussing a replacemnet for a N95/N100.. Just trying to find a way to create a clothmask that can be washed (disinfected with hot water), resused over and over, that will have as main purpose to get everyone (thats the hope) to use it all the time. So if anyone is infeckted they dont spread… And to do so we will have to reinvent the wheel by making the existing cloth masks and manuals betther.. AND if dosing so also means we can make a mask that is more effective than trad. cloth masks in protecting the wearer from infection, then it will be a big bonus :D
And I have a good feeling about Gentian violet.. It may mean that we can reduce the numbers of layers.. making the masks more comfy, and then more popular (among those who will not have an hughe supply of disposables.. And that goes for allmost anybody who plan to try to ride this storm of, and not SIP..
Urdar: Here’s a link that provides some good information about synthetic fabrics such as rayon. The spandex may be something to look at because of its stretchiness.
Urdar-Norge – at 17:56 SCW AZ: I think you should read the whole thread. :)
You are all 100% correct. Functioning like a (broken) machine today. FBI (food borne illness) from a chinese meal. . . food was great. . . results were terrible. . .
Will cypher on this and report back when head is somewhat clear
Sorry, the Tinyurl link doesn’t seem to be working. Try this one:
http://home.howstuffworks.com/how-to-clean-synthetic-fabrics.htm
Point of clarification: I didn’t say RIT *made* the dye, I only speculated that they had the facilities to package it.
Another thing: I repeat, do not wear the gentian violet against your skin, it needs to have a layer of cloth in between.
And I recommend the t-shirt fabric, which is a knitted, not woven, fabric. The t-shir mask has layers at right angles, this is to make sure that the particles can’t slip between the meshes of a woven fabric. If you look at the fabric with a magnifier, you can see that woven fabric has bigger spaces than knits. In a knit, the threads are piled up two deep everywhere, in a woven fabric, there is only one thread in a layer, usually (plain weave—twills are different).
Also: Gentian Violet is in the coal-tar dye family, and these dyes, particularly when inhaled, are suspected of being mutagenic or carcinogenic. You have to be very careful with the powder, and not breathe it. Remember, you are going to use it to kill viruses, it is not nice stuff in the first place.
I’m wondering if pipe cleaners sewn into the edging in the upper part of the mask would work to adapt the fit over the nose.
thx WetDirt. I was thinking of dyiing the towell layer maybe? that goes in the middle. I think towles are good since they are fluffy, and makes a better fit, and has a large surface for partikles to get caught. and is easaly awailible for everyone.
Pipecleaners vill be to soft, electric vires have been proposed, they are more stiff, and dont rust. (good for washing)
keep up the good thinking! :)
i wonder if hiking socks (partially water repellent) would be useful material. Two pair might have enough material for 8 washable masks. Electric wire sewn in for fit on the upper side … and what are the ties made from?
Fabric-covered elastic bands found in most fabrics shops could be sewn in at the top and bottom, much like the N-95 dust masks at local hardware stores have. Measure around the crown of the head, and around the back of the neck from where the material would cover the face. Add a couple of inches for foldover seams, and voila! The Mask!
DemFromCT, BroncoBill, all - we need to find out how to test how useful these things are. Something like the MIT Labs, for masks. Prototype after prototype. Open design.
wanted link: the blu /purple N95(?) masks that is coated with a chemical. Maybe its Gentian Violett, I cant find any links anymore…
and for discusion: the synthic plastic cleaning “cloth” fabrics.. some is very similar with masks in the fiber structure. And they can be boiled. brandnames? materials?
Hi Urdar! I’m not sure if you are referring to microfiber fabrics, used in washable mopping pads. Two brand names are Swiffer and Bissell.
Urdar: I thought you would be interested in seeing these masks which are apparently coated with herbal substances. Check out the printed fabrics!
http://www.breathehealthy.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=masks
lugon has mentioned that one or more FluWikians could “adopt” a subject area. One of the things an adopter could do for simple masks is find someone willing to test different mask designs using standard aerosol testing techniques. Any of the companies that manufacture N95 masks should either have the equipment to test the efficiency of their masks or contract out for the testing. Universities working with aerosols also would have the necessary equipment. We’d need to have someone test several simple mask designs using typical breathing rates for (1) the layers of material around the nose & mouth, and (2) the outside edge of the mask fitted to one of the standard “faces” described in the CDC article. Maybe the place to start is the University of Pittsburgh, where the work for the above article was done.
This project can be broken down into separate sections (NOT threads) that different people could work on or “specialize” in.
Filtering media: What fabric to use.
Sizing: design of template(s) that will be used to cut fabric.
Face Seal: Design of “system” that provides for seal to face .
Straps: Choice of material and design to hold mask to users face.
Things to watch for in this project:
Filtering media: What fabric to use. . .
Fabric thickness / density:
Most important, whatever material is used has to be small enough to capture the virus, but also allow for EASY airflow.
If the material is too dense, airflow will take the least line of resistance and bypass the filter entering the users airway via the face seal.
If material is too dense, humidity will build up quickly from exhalations reducing airflow and bypass the filter entering the users airway via the face seal.
Face Seal:
Needs to provide uniform and flexible seal to face.
Determine if a “crossbar” should be used to “puff out” or cup (like a bra) filtering material.
Determine if face seal will “anchor” straps or if straps will attach solely to fabric.
If straps are attached to seal, they must not negatively affect seal by unduly distorting.
Straps:
Adjustable or one size fits all
How to attach to mask (to mask seal or direct to fabric)
Sizing:
Two sizes, three at the most should be enough.
Bump. Microfiber sounds very interesting, is seems to keep its characteristics when wet, and are boil-proof. Possible problem; products that claims to be MF, that is not.
Gentian Violet..? is it easy to get by? Can it be bought in the US? In art supply stores, do you have these stores? in smaller cities?
Splitting up the research: Someone with experience on coloring try to do (or describe ) the dying of a fabric (a white towel 100% cotton? Enough for 15 masks (towel 120×65cm 47×25 inch). Write down experience, and post it as a scetch for a step to step guide.
Can it be boiled afterward without losing color, does it get onto the other layers of fabric? Eventual avoiding problem with pigment dust etc
I will try to sew a model, based on the other models posted here. And I will thru a simple “pepper test “ and “rising test” se if the fit is good enough. Other may also do this and post their thinking.
Finally we will have a manual with a number of fabrics, Gentian Violet possibly, and a design manual illustrated. (need legal and social text in english! Then send it to any party that would like to find out how efficient it would be. And remember that main goal is to have a social protection. A high % protection of the wearer is the bonus that will make it “sell”
Svann: No: the mask was color dyed with a chemical with antiviral efect, i belive it was a industrial standard mask, (found a link to the produser half year ago here.) Esential oils could be helpfull, but it has to be the single vearers choice, (hard to breath those amuounts needed over time I belive).
Urdar-Norge, I am in the process of trying to obtain some gentian violet, it is not very easy to get, and I’m having some trouble with ordering. I’m not sure yet, but experience with other dyes makes me think that GV will work best on natural fabrics like 100% cotton, and might not take well on synthetics like polyester or microfiber. I think jersy knits will work better than wovens, even towels, because knits have two layers of fiber, not one. I have access to an industrial fit-test setup, and plan to try some ideas out once I get the GV.
brilliant! I se the problem to get GV as hughe drawback on the usage.. My idea of using towel would be that its the middle layer (away from skin) and has as purpose to be “fluffy” for fit. (and its a very common material) I also think that towel fabric is “meshy” like pure cotton, but keeps it fluff after wash. It is easy to breath thru, but stops light and that means its like a labyrint for particles to get caught, and has larger surface for a antiviral chemikal like GV..
Any other proposals for a common chemical? (disinfectants would not work since they are vaporissing and are probably harmful to breath)
Two ideas:
Maybe someone can explore the feasibility of reconverting the cut-and-build patterns so that they will be able to start building masks in a rush?
Of course, our amateurish t-shirt based masks could also be made directly by t-shirt makers if they can pre-shrink and cut them in advance. Many people will not have the skill or the needed peace of mind to build their own.
Also, if many people wear these masks from day one, then that will mean better acceptabilty, more people wearing them, and more overall protection. It’s all about decreasing R-naught to make it go below one.
Also, we need to look into the weak points in other masks: if fit is the problem, then we may need some “sponge” glued to the edges.
How are contacts with “testers” going?
the usage of disposables (paper material) is not a solution, the hole problem is based on the nature of dispoables, there just aint enough to keep it going day after day. Thats why we need a solution that is washable, (boil wash)
It is a problem that some people is not able to sew whith needle and tread, but thats just the way it is.. The DIY manual should be easy to understand. And the usage of glue could also be examined.
The weak sides of reg mask are that the moulded ones are stiff, and so may not fit. The cloth one will not have this problem i think. I will start with a copy of 3Ms folded mask, and see if it can be improved in shape. I do study a design field, this is my favourit problem solving thing to do :) I will then post a scetch for the FWans to test out and corect the textings.
Urdar-Norge, I really appreciate your persistence, and hope you don’t give up until we have a good solution for the global populations. I think towel is a good idea for the inside, like you said. I have been making antiviral vinegar sprays, and I think (hope) that a good spritzing will make the outside of the mask too acid and unwelcoming for a virus to stay strong. Maybe spray several times a day. Or, maybe after washing the mask, rinse in diluted vinegar, which is available in most places. Does anyone know if the fabric would still be acidic after the vinegar dries?
Also, maybe some companies that already sell popular clothes to young people around the world, (not sure who, Old Navy or something?)could make the masks popular in a hurry. Sell to those who can pay, and distribute for free in some areas. Even life and death things have to be “cool” for the young people to follow.
Lorelle, very good thoughts with the vinegar. I don’t know for sure if the ph would be the same dry, but I’d hazard to guess it would still be somewhat acidic.
There is some precedence for the use of vinegar as a medicine and for disinfection.
From wikipedia…”Vinegar is a folk medicine used in China to prevent the spread of virus such as SARS (Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome) and other pneumonia outbreaks:
“On February 13, 2003 news of a type of atypical pneumonia that appeared in six cities of south China’s Guangdong province has been brought under control, with no cases reported since Monday. According to press conferences held by the Guangdong and Guangzhou governments, local governments at various levels have taken emergency measures to control the prices of isatis root, vinegar and other related anti-virus medicines, which saw soaring prices due to their effectiveness in curing this disease” (source unknown)…”
…”Apple cider vinegar (ACV) is a much more useful astringent than ice and will reduce inflammation, bruising and swelling in approximately a third of the time that ice will take. Application is directly onto the skin with a flannel, and left on for an hour or so.
Vinegar along with hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) is used in the livestock industry to kill bacteria and viruses before refrigeration storage. A chemical mixture of peracetic acid is formed when acetic acid is mixed with hydrogen peroxide. It is being used in some Asian countries by aerosol sprays for control of pneumonia. A mixture of five-percent acetic acid and three-percent hydrogen peroxide is commonly used…”
wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegars#Medicine
Thanks MaMa. I like simple cheap solutions. I have PH strips that I haven’t tried yet. Maybe I’ll try to test the already dried, vinegar-sprayed cloth and see what happens.
I’d suggest testing wet and dry both to compare, but you probably already thought of that:-)
Please let us know how it turns out.
Well, I think we need someone with better technology. The strips I have don’t seem very accurate. The pure vinegar looks like around PH of 4, and the dried vinegar-soaked cloth, (wetted again with a little water) looks like ….well, never mind. Where’s a scientist? I’m just a housewife.
Lugon, MaMa, Lorelle, Urdar-Norge, WetDirt and all others,
I previously made a post about just getting N-95 masks with out reading the whole thread. . . Bad me
I think the pursuit of a “mask for all” project is noble and worthy, but I see lots and lots of problems too. I feel that this is a difficut task, that is very close to impossible.
I am involved with worker safety in the US, keeping construction workers safe during re-fuling outages in nuclear power plants. I have taken all the respirator training available and am qualified to do mask fits on employees.
Throughout the posts I see things that just will not work. If you would like me to point these out, I’d love to. If not I’ll shut up and go away. I don’t have all the answers, but I can see problems.
If you’ld like me to be “part of the team” as a devil’s advocate, count me in. If not, I will not be a “basher”, stopping by to do nothing but be negative.
SCW AZ, I can only speak for myself of course, but IMO having someone qualified and knowledgable to point out problems/shortcomings is a good thing. After all we don’t just want face coverings, we want something that will offer some protection, or what’s the point?.
Any positive suggestions or comments would of course be welcome too:-)
SCW AZ – at 12:17 Yes, Please point out the problems. That’s why it’s called “cooperative thinking”. If any of us thought we had the final product, we would be busy making them instead of talking about it.
SCW AZ – at 12:17
I, for one, would appreciate some pro feedback. I work in the Environmental industry, with exposure to a lot of toxics, and I understand where you are coming from. That said, however, I still see a niche for a reusable mask that is within reach of most people without access to the real thing. I rather suspect that some ideas just won’t be viable, in particular, the idea to spray stuff on the fabric like vinegar or oils.
Here is what I would like: a critique of my proposed mask. Nobody else’s for the moment. I have a tough hide. (squishy down in there somewhere, though) My design intent: A washable mask that will nearly meet the n-95 standard. To be used for a few hours at a time. Requiring minimal sewing skills, and home equipment.
For a basic mask, I propose the t-shirt mask with multiple filter layers as has already been described by others. This design seems to me to be well thought-out, and has attempted to answer the leakage problems pretty well, as well using available materials.
The one change is to make a pocket and use a gentian violet dyed filter. I have posted an article above regarding gentian violet. I see the GV as taking up the slack in the particulate filtering capability. It addresses the impulse to kill the viruses after capturing them. I’m not crazy about the suspension system, because it’s fiddly and going to be hard to manage taking the mask off. But I understand its purpose, and wonder if a velcro variation might work.
I am firmly in the camp that wearing a mask is better than nothing, and wearing a well-fitting mask is better than a poorly-fitting one. I firmly believe that getting a decent mask out will save substantial lives for the general public, particuly those who have not prepared and must leave their homes for provisions.
I suspect that a variation of the gentian violet idea might even help health-care workers. I see a huge problem before us when the disposable masks run out. I’d like to get cracking on solving it.
SCW AZ – at 12:17 - please do point out the problems, with details as to why things don’t work. Hunches count, and reasons and numbers are better.
wetDirt - I have a “population” view. I’m not exactly sure, but if a mask reaches a certain level of protection, then it might diminish R-naught. In the end we’ll see a combined strategy: most people will not SIP, but a combination of commercial masks, simple masks, social distance, asynchronous transfer, hand-washing, respiratory ettiquette, home care etc, all of that together might make it. Simple masks are one element.
And we don’t know how good they can become with open design. We haven’t finished yet.
Closed for length. New thread started here.