Forum: Ideas to Prevent Home Invations

This topic has been skirted around in many prep threads. What can we do to prevent and if not prevent, to stop home invations. How can we make where we shelter less of a target? No smoke, no food smell. ect. Do we put up signs warning people to stay away. Do we arm ourselfs. What are the options? Black out the windows? Will it even come to this in a Pandemic? I would like your input. Thanks, Jon

not issue them?

oh.. not invitations.. invasions well get a dog, keep a low profile, look mean and tough when visible, get a weapon and flash it occasionally especially when ANYONE drops by…. I’m rigging a motion detector light to cassette speaker system that has barking dogs playing. do anything you can to make the place uninviting… start looking at your neighbors like they have stuff and you don’t

(hmmm looking forward to other useful and useless ideas)

• Quarantine sign with blood stains
• Recorded coughing sounds from multiple household members
• Sheets hanging over the fence with blood / faeces stains

Show signs of suffering and contagion, then only those who wish to help will visit.

I like the confrontation prevention ideas so far.

Improve your home security. I’ve said this many times. My Ideas:

Exterior lighting-rRegular & security lighting *Use a mix of regular and solar powered

Security camera’s

A big dog

A mean cat

Weapons *Your choice

I have 200 pounds worth of snarling dogs that attack the front door whenever someone even thinks of ringing the doorbell. On another thread long long ago, I suggested going to the door, coughing loudly, and asking “ya’ll here to pick up the bodies?”. But of course, they wouldn’t be able to hear me over the sounds of snarling dogs.:-)

Roll up towels etc and tie them all up in plastic bags to look like the shape of a dead body and put shunk oil on it. Maybe lay the “dead body” on pavement, or somewhere, so that the “blood” that seem to be seeping from it is noticed.

I’ve seen old westerns where poeple are trying to hold out in a cabin or house. Then the bad poeple come and then there is a shoot out. And then, when they can’t get in, they light the structure on fire.

I’ll be armed but if there is a gang and I can hold them off, I can see my house being lit on fire. This same gang could set fire to my house if they thought was a place of desease.

Dig a fake grave in front of the house ;-)

I’m trying to imagine the worst case like a gang of armed hungry men who are trying to save their family’s lives because they didn’t prepare. Now they are hungry and so are their wifes, kids, etc. They will do anything to survive and they are armed and strong enough to take whatever they need.

I expect a shoot out but there is only one of me and ten of them.

I suspect that you are less likely to see organized groups of individuals roaming and stealing and more singles or doubles (probably brothers, cousins, etc). The idea is not to make your house indestructible, it is to make it less appealing then your neighbors house.

What’s the old saying, “You don’t have to outrun the bear, you just have to outrun the person next to you”?

If memory serves me, the defender has a three to one advantage. If a gang shows up to burn your house, the best place to be is not in your house. A place of concealment about a hundred yards out and an M-14 with a 3 to 9 power scope would place you in a better position to defend your home. I hope to God this fantasy never comes true.

nopower

I never heard that one before… outrun… that’s hilarious AND true

Home are targeted for takeovers because (1) the residents are known to have cash or other valuables there and (2) they are known to be unready to protect themselves and those assets.

If we postulate a sitation where food/supplies/vacciene is a valuable commodity to potentially kill for, then either (1) or (2) must not allowed to be true. Therefore (this is starting to sound like a high school geometry theorem) you must not let others know what you have, rule 1, or you must be prepared to anticipate an attack and prevent its success, rule 2.

All the talk of telling your neighbors what you are doing as a measure of helping them or giving them materials violates rule 1. Thinking that it is sufficient to have a baseball bat or coughing as you open the door violates rule 2. Perhaps digging a mock grave in your front yard or putting out a ‘Sick, keep away’ will dissuade some, but not all. However, if TSHTF, the population will be reduced anyway. I have a feeling that there are a fair number of secret preppers out there and when it comes down to it they will band together for protection as well as support. Only time will tell and like those of us here, I sincerely and fervently hope it never comes to pass.

Cover the smell of your steaks grilling by burning a smudge pot of hair and tire rubber.

I was thinking worst case but then again it’s not so crazy the fire thing. It seems like every riot has fires. Even after sporting events things get lit on fire.

Watch Dog – at 20:16

Quadruple your preps and invite 3 trusted friends to spend the duration with you.

Make sure, TWO of those holing up with you are Baptists, that way they won’t drink the liquor! he he.(Sorry could not resist and did not mean to be offensive)

I was toying with idea of ground floor bathroom window…either putting bars on window, replacing pane with glass blocks and now I have arrived at the cheaper alternative --- planting biga** pyracantheas outside window!

I think that will work.

I like the friends part until Tami pointed out that they will drink my liquor.

I guess I’ve got to make some decisions.

I like the friends part until Tami pointed out that they will drink my liquor.

I guess I’ve got to make some decisions.

not if you quadruple the liquor too. ;)

If and after the other good stuff mentioned here and other threads doesn’t do the trick, I kinda like the ol’ fall-back of a perimeter of claymores hard wired to a switchboard in the house, maybe even build it right into the arm of my Barcalounger.

Sorry, just finished watching ‘Caddy Shack’ for the umteenth time. Guess I am too easily influnced by electronic media.

For most of us in the US, none of this will come to pass. Working out your fears is one thing, scaring the new visitors is another. Please be thoughtful. Not everyone who visits here has been obssessing about this for months and is just looking for helpful information.

Oremus – at 23:00 --- Make sure you label the “cheap” stuff For Visitors, and keep the good stuff for yerself! ;-)

Well, everyone is asleep, hubby is watching a scary movie and I wish to thank you all for this entertaining topic. I have learned some wonderful ideas for the next group of 20-year old college drop-outs who are unable to read the no trespassing signs and troup up the drive-way in a beat up pick-up truck with a freezer in the back, offering to sell EXPENSIVE steaks and frozen shrimp because the local restaurants’ freezers were full. Riiiight!

Must hit the liquor store tomorrow so as to fuel all my Baptist friends, hmmmm . . .maybe a few Catholics too? and wire claymores into a good, easy to use panel that I can operate from the kitchen? Colleges let out this week! Gotta give them some reason to get a summer job and not prey on homeowners!

And, Melanie is right. Don’t scare the newbies!

I think that if the bird hits the fan that most people who have not prepared who are thinking the situation through would hopefully conclude that it would be safer to invade a company (restaurant, bakery, school cafeteria) rather than a private home.

I am very interested in this topic and I think that it needs to be discused more. What’s the point of educating yourself, spending lots money on preps and spending lots of time on research, if someone is just going to take it away from you? A years worth of effort can be taken from you in minutes.

I ask you, if you did not prep and you had a starving family, what would you do? What would you do if you had a choice of:

1.) You and your family starving or 2.) Taking food from someone weaker than you.

If those were your two and only choices what would you do?

I want to protect my supplies and family in a worst case scenario and this thread can help me do it. Of course we are talking worst case and I’m sorry if that it too scary to talk about. This is all about education that I hope I will never need.

And the humor helps because this stuff scares me too!

Watch Dog – at 01:13

“And the humor helps because this stuff scares me too!”

Exactly my point, this is all very scary stuff, and you need a bit of humor (sorry if it was a bit too over the top for some) interjected from time to time to make it palatable.

The fact that it is scary & serious makes it all the more important to discuss and think through what steps you are will to take because just like the food & water, if you do not begin that process now, you will be caught off guard and unprepared to meet the challenge.

Call me an ostrich, but I’m not too worried. I live in a rural area, not an extremely remote one, but there are no Wal-Marts or Jumbo Supermarkets or anything like that out here, our state highway isn’t the most obvious route from any major Point A to Point B (we get more of the scenic-road type of traffic), and nobody looks affluent. Hell, nobody IS affluent. But at the same time, as in many rural areas, the people are resourceful. No one here has the money to go out and buy a ready-packaged 3 year’s supply of freeze-dried foie gras and all other necessaries. OTOH everyone’s used to being prepared for power outages caused by big blizzards or other storms, almost everyone has an alternative heat source (no one can afford to heat just with oil; we chop a lot of wood), almost everyone has a vegetable garden and knows how to can, and people are still used to helping each other out. I have a feeling that the local grass-roots response will be a lot more cooperative than competitive, so I wouldn’t worry about home invasions from within the community, and we’re just not a sexy target for anyone from outside the community.

Unfortunately, there is not a one size fits all answer for security. Our living conditions are too varied. Those that live in the hinterlands may very well have different experiences than those that live in the larger cities.

Any fortress can be breached. Any preparation can be undone by the unanticipated. If buying another box of bullets or putting in a steel door makes you feel better go for it. Part of the psychology of preparation is getting peace of mind.

Even if the death rate is as rapid and large as some fear, I still do not see a societal collapse. Individual responses will be off the charts. Some will go whoring and some will go to church. Others will fall into despair, but many will bury themselves in the work of looking after their loved ones.

In 1918, there were no large riots. Crime rates actually fell during the pandemic as both the police and the perpetrators went to their sick beds. During the great mortality of the Black Death there was societal upheaval. The power of the church and the power of aristocrats was weakened. There were the flagellants, there were marauders, and there was the pogrom against the Jews, these events exposed the cracks in society but did not bring it down.

After this event passes, I suspect we will see a weakening of the power of the state. This will come about for two reasons. First, a great many bureaucrats will be dead. Second, most people will come to realize the promise of protection proffered by the state is to a large extent hollow. Still, this will not be the end of the state. We will still need law and order. We will still need schools. We will still need public utilities.

So, while we are sitting behind our stacks of M.R.E. ‘s, loading and locking our AK 47’s, we might remain mindful of the fact that the thing that does us in may very well not be a thug bent on robbery, the thing that kills us may very well be a hug or a hand shake from a friend.

Cops always say, if someone really wants to break in, they will. However, I suspect that potential food-break-ins will be much like many burglaries now. 1) They have to think no one is home 2)the situation has to be right - no neighbors nearby to call 911, no dogs, etc. 3) They will pass through quickly and move on. They will not spend hours rumaging through the enitre house in the hopes of finding hidden preps. They’ll hit the most likely spots - kitchen, basement, garage. I plan to 1) Make the house as univinting as possible (signs, I like the “dead body” idea if needed, answer the door in a fake sweat and mask on my face 2)Keep as many preps hidden as possible and keep only essential in likely spots.

A basball bat and a can of hornet spray can work wonders. I am not a gun person. The ONLY reason I’d consider one is if things get beyond horrendous, in which case I probably can’t get one anyway (hopes and prayers it never comes to that), and/or I need a hunting rifle to get the deer that munch on my perennials so that I they can now become part of my food chain.

I tend to agree with laura… besides if a family is starving, who am I to say they can’t forage for food in the “empty” houses on the block? if they found nothing I might even give them some from my stock if they’re honest people…

laura@11:06

Hornet spray? DO tell…..

lauraB – at 11:06 - I pretty much agree with your points except, if things do go bad – in a worst case scenario - (although I personally don’t think it will) as I have proposed in one of the first posts that I wrote somewhere on the FW – that “desperate people do desperate things.” The guy that has lived his entire life by walking the line and has always abided by the rules of society may have no choice if he has to feed a sick child or other loved one. We may have 10% of the entire population prepared for pandemic. Look around your neighborhood if you live in the city or suburbs and imagine the desperation that will ensue when good people run out of water, food and medications. Should we worry about roving gangs of thugs? Maybe….perhaps the nice guy next door who didn’t have time to pay attention to the news or your warnings will be stealing your tomato plants, water or worse.

What would you do?

BTW – a suggestion - instead of wasp spray try making your own red pepper spray. Use cayenne pepper in water – mixed in a blender and pour into a spay bottle that is adjustable from “spray to stream.” The wasp spray may blind the wrong person. (besides, I have some good friends that are Wasps ;-)

changed hornet to wasp since I don’t have any “hornet” friends.

Even if social disorder is a small chance, giving it some thought, can make a difference in your preps. If it happens, you’ll be very glad to have your ducks lined up.

If there is food shortages and roaming people, assume there is no power either. How can you cook outside, with your grill aromas attracting hungry desparate people. Have you stored a lot of noncooking food? How would you make your dried beans and rice, under such hardship? If you go past three months of normal food prep, anything worse may mean you need noncooking food;- bean soups, peanutbutter and crackers, cookies, trail bars, pringles, canned meats. I’ve gotten to the point of counting how long my noncooking food will go and adding mainly to that.

Look for where you can get unbreakable plexiglass cut to the size of all your first floor windows. (to be screwed on the inside) I would wait to buy it until you see how bad the pandemic is, as it’s not where others will be panic buying. Also, if there is danger, two grownups are not enough defense. Bring in another family at that point. You need numbers for getting water, wood, surveillance. You can’t just protect yourself with ammo, if someone doesn’t stay awake at all times. Sorry if this bothers some people.

Here in Florida many of us have window coverings for hurricanes, so that will help prevent some, I bought two solar powered security lights and after watching people fight over gas & plywood during last two years during hurricanes, I know many people will go crazy without water and food and will invade homes if possible! Also someone said there were no riots in 1918, but we were a different country back then with tougher people than we have now ! People today are lazy and will look for the quick fix, even at the expense of their neighbors!

This from a gun nut, I am not discouraging anyone from taking reasonable steps to secure their lives and secure their homes. I am simply saying all things in moderation. If you have never owned a firearm before, before you invest in weapons systems that costs thousands of dollars, you might want to do some reading.

In a worst case scenario, we all may become foragers after a while. While robbery is not sanctioned under any circumstance, the legal code has built into it provisions for duress and necessity. If for instance, you are caught in a mountain pass in a blizzard, the law will generally wink at what would normally be a burglary should you break into a mountain cabin, build a fire, and eat a can of soup from the cupboard. While you may avoid criminal prosecution, you still have an obligation to restore the property owner for whatever damage you may have caused. It would be unwise to warp this concept into the notion that he makes more money than I do, my need is greater than his, and therefore I should be able to help myself to his property.

Rows and rows of houses full of dead people would present other issues. It makes no sense to leave food in the cupboards of the dead, while the living starves. At some point, property becomes abandoned. After a reasonable period of time, adverse possession becomes legal possession

Cloud9 – at 13:28 - from one gun nut (we’re really gun enthusiasts) to another - a well thought out, excellent post.

Defenders DO have an advantage; however, attackers have the element of surprise. That is unless, of course, you take it away from them. The easiest (and cheapest) way to do that is to slow them down. Set up barricades around your property in zones. For instance, you shouldn’t let anyone get to your front porch, especially if you have big glass windows looking out on it. Sam’s sells some very cheap plastic 50′ x 3′ fencing with which you could easily surround your front porch. Yes, they could cut through it, but the object is to slow them down. You could also put up some cheap fencing around your front yard with some metal fence poles and cheap metal fencing (the kind used for gardens). You can use trip wires with noise makers, glow sticks, etc. If you don’t have fencing around your backyard, it would be a great time to make the investment. You can always use these supplies for other things. It’s also a very good idea to have some 2×4 plywood on hand for those big windows.

Have some *bodies* on the front porch. Perhaps several tents in the back yard (storage). Put a *body* in the opening of one tent with the legs sticking out. A practice target across the street with bullet holes.

Try to tell a story. Be creative with your message. Don’t go over the top.

Let’s remember something here folks. If indeed you have a worst case with a huge bit of civil unrest … those “unresting” that are going to affect you are more likely your neighbors.

The reason I say this is because with the “worst case” scenario that would cause this, fuel availability will be low. Without fuel, you don’t have a good getaway vehicle that could cary multiple individuals plus any supplies they ransack.

That is why riots most often affect the neighborhoods where the rioting individuals actually live. It does happen, but most people are bussed into an area to affect a riot.

So, if your neighborhood is suspect then prepare your residence with that in mind. Yes, vandalism is awful … am dealing with that now … but it is also mostly local. The perps that vandalized our home had no vehicle (locked cattle gates and five strand barbwire surround our acreage and none were tampered with or broke down … one road in and one road out).

What a thief can take is predicated on how much they will be able to carry. They can’t run, carry the stuff, and shoot at the same time … at least not effectively.

So don’t expect a ton of armed folks to all show up at your door at one time to over power you. Think one or two individuals with limited capacity to enter and carry anything away. And remember that most home invaders are cowards … they mostly will invade a vacant home over one that is occupied, which SIPs would be.

Protect all possible entrances into your home. Don’t expect to have to protect all of them at one time. Don’t get flashy with your preps and make yourself a target. Share your knowledge, prepare to donate to the neighborhood “stone soup” pot if necessary … don’t necessarily share the extent of your preparations.

Its the difference between saying that I invested in the stock market vs. I just invested 10,000 US dollars in the stock market out of the safe I keep downstairs under the pile of blankets in the laundry room.

Whoops … should read “It does happen, but most people are NOT bussed into an area to affect a riot.”

Goes to show you one word can throw the whole meaning of a sentence off. <sigh>

Gun Fight Tips:

1. Don’t get in a gun fight. There is only one guaranteed way to avoid a gun fight—disarm. This is a valid decision for many if not most people. By arming yourself you greatly increase the odds that your encounter with an armed intruder will end badly for someone; maybe you. 2. If you choose to be armed, then you must choose to be willing to apply lethal force. There is no middle ground. Do not think that brandishing a weapon will solve your problem. By escalating the confrontation, it will more than likely make it worse. If you have a gun then you had better be willing to use it. 3. Training, training, training. No one should think that their instincts or their wit will serve them well in a gun fight. In fact, you will need to make decisions and react in counter-intuitive and non-instinctual ways. If you have a gun, then you have assumed an awesome responsibility. The only responsible alternative is to receive professional training. The NRA certifies excellent instructors. You can find a course near you (in the USA) here: http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/find.asp 4. Practice, practice, practice. Did you know that an analysis of real-world armed encounters by trained law enforcement officers indicates that a very low percentage of their shots fired hit the intended target? The stress and dynamics of any armed encounter will paralyze many and severely degrade the effectiveness of all. You will do no better. You must train your physical and mental abilities to automatically find, acquire, evaluate and engage a threat. This training is the only thing that will keep you alive if you decide to participate in a gun fight. 5. Target Identification. You must hit what you want to hit and not hit what you do not want to hit. Your brain will be awash with endorphins. Your thinking will be impaired. You want as much accurate and clear information as possible. Invest in a high quality and very bright (>75 lumens) tactical flashlight (try a police supply store). In terms of winning a gunfight, this is the single most important gear decision you will make. More important than the weapon, caliber or ammo. Being able to clearly identify & qualify your target is an enormous advantage. Also, an intensely bright light in the face will physically incapacitate most people (try it). It will literally overwhelm the nervous system and “stun” an individual. The tactical advantage of having a bright beam of light on the other guy will prevent most gun fights (but don’t count on it!).

Is anyone here worried about the government playing Robin Hood? Steal from the prepped to give to the unprepped? What would you do if they showed up fully armed and demanded to see what you have?

I plan on having a hiding place for most of my preps.

Anon 63 – at 20:49 - I for one do not think that there will be panic in the streets or shear madness as the masses revolt………until and unless the government starts playing Robin Hood!!

IMHO - Never happen.

Anon 63 – at 20:49 I have the perfect answer for you: Paint in huge letters ont the top and sides of your house “Help! Need Food and Water!” That will keep them away from you. It did in N.O. (sorry, couldn’t resist)

If power and food are scarce, food is the currency not money. So, why not protect your food like you would cash in the house. Tuck it away in several hidden places. Hide in some in the attic, under the floor boards…whatever. If you have multiple locations for your preps, an invader won’t be able to take everything. If you have a gang that has infiltrated your home, they will take stuff. Hopefully, they won’t know about all your hiding places and you can at least exist for a while. Otherwise, you may end up being a home invader yourself.

LOL! So true!

Any suggestions on where to buy “Quarantine” signs?

I am worried about this scenario, but I did take heart in the ABC movie this week how they showed people being very hesitant to go into another person’s house - thinking they might get exposed. My gut feeling is that people will be willing to endure a lot of hunger - before risking a face-to-face confrontation with a stranger who might be sick. My guess is that if there are home invasions, they will occur at night - and people will try to break in the back door - go to the kitchen, and grab whatever easy food items they can identify.

A “crazy” idea that I have been thinking about is buying several “blow horns” (like they might use on boats or at sporting events, $4.95 for a small version and $9.95 for a large size at Walmart), and giving them to friends and neighbors througout the neighborhood. My idea is that if one house is confronted by “bad guys”, the people inside could sound their horn - at which point others in the neighborhood would blow their’s at the same time. This might create a “horns of Jericho” type atmosphere where the intruders might think that the neighborhood has some type of “system” that is going to end up bad for them (geting caught, surrounded, etc…) - and maybe they move on to target another neighborhood. The above effect could be enhanced if various gun owners around the neighborhood shoot a few rounds from their shotguns up in the air (like you sometimes hear people do at New Year’s). I am thinking that anything that makes the intruders feel that they might be in over their heads - might keep them moving along. This type of system would not work for people in very rural areas, but might work in the suburbs of a major city.

City Slicker – at 22:07 — The above effect could be enhanced if various gun owners around the neighborhood shoot a few rounds from their shotguns up in the air (like you sometimes hear people do at New Year’s).

The blow horns are a great idea. Shooting up in the air, not so good.

shoot a few rounds from their shotguns up in the air

Whatever goes up, MUST eventually come down!! That law is based on the fact that gravity sucks! ;-)

Empty bottles….only…..of red wine flu killer.

But I *DO* like the idea of the horns. I’ve had the chance to set off one o’ those big ones from my local boat dealership in the Sacramento Delta. 145 decibels of pure hell on your ears!

Even if you just used it to scare an intruder from your own door, it would be very effective!

mmmelody47 --- I’m working on one right now as we speak. Not Cab tonight…decided to try some o’ that Peanut Noyer(Pinot Noir) that Beauleau Vineyards sells…so far it ain’t too bad!

BB looks around for his half-full Dixie-cup…”I know it’s here somewhere…”

I put in a new metal gate last year, cement and all. Found the biggest chain and lock I could find. Put a scary no trespassing sign and beware of dog. So whoever tried breaking in last time got the point. Next time they would be met with resistance. I heard allot of rumors after that about me, so now the UPS guy even seems scared. The gate makes it look like I mean business. No issues since.

Contractors use a wire mesh called 6/6/10. You can buy it in rolls and use to cover windows and doors. Also a roll of frosted plastic to cover the inside of windows. Sunlight will come through but visitors can’t see in. Those hooks you buy to hang a bicycle in the garage, screw one on each side on the inside of doors and lay a 2×4 across. Barbed wire? Anything to make your house look less attractive than the next guys.

BroncoBill – at 22:35

Fetzer Merlot - #3.

Dixie-Cup???? A step down for sure. We use styrofoam here on the right coast. Don’t break when you get to #4.

Seems to me that invaders will choose the path of least resistance, so don’t be that.

Here is a fun project. I actually did this. I have a hidden microphone at the front and the back of the house. I put the mic (condenser type) at the back of the house because we used to like to feed the bird a squirrels and it was fun to listen to the bird inside while you watch them eat. I built a circuit to power the microphones and filter out low frequencies that works so well that I can hear the sound of the little beaks hitting the bottom of the plastic food dish. With the one in the front yard, I can clearly hear the mail “person” walking up my walk way to deliver mail. This could help with the “element of surprise issue” when people (friendly or otherwise) walk onto the property.

Centella is a “wirehead”

oops. “birds” plural

This is a great thread. Thank you everyone for the input.

When we lived in Lusaka in the eighties, it was a very dangerous place. I followed the advice of a veteran American and never had a problem. I made my place more difficultt to rob than all my neighbours (high fence with three rows of barbed wire on top, lights all around, small stones to stop silent approaches, strong backup lights on batteries, safety routines before the gate was opened, and thick steel bars on all the windows. Last but not least, I made sure that all the neighbours knew I was armed. Our Dobermann and two Weimaraners also helped. We now live in a military-guarded compound so I have no worries on that front.

mmmelody47, thank you for your kindness. I spent yesterday afternoon at the range with a friend. We shot everything from an 1851 hand cannon to assault rifles. Great fun. The bad news all of that stuff now has to be cleaned. Berdan primers have no mercy for steel. This brings up a point. The cheapest rifles on the market tend to be those from the old communist block. The cheapest ammunition is from the same source. All of this ammo tends to be berdan primed. The primer compounds are very hydroscopic. Whatever you shoot must be cleaned, but if you are shooting military surplus, they have to be cleaned especially well. The surprise of the day, the cheapest rifle on the range was one of the hardest hitting with the loudest report. A Mosin Nagant 1944 carbine.

Firing rounds in the air. Most people do not shoot straight up into the air. They fire their weapons in an arc. The people who get hurt, find themselves at the end of that arc while the bullet still has enough energy to do damage. Myth Busters did an episode on this. They determined that a bullet fired straight up would not fall with enough velocity to kill someone. It will put a knot on your head but it won’t kill you. Bird shot, just rains down. Anybody who has spent any time on a dove field, D.C. jokes aside, has been peppered. At a distance, the shot simply rolls off the brim of your hat. That is why we wear shooting glasses.

I would prefer to fire a warning shot, to killing someone. Having said that, the problem with firing a rifle inside a dwelling is that most walls will not stop the bullet. A warning shot may very well wind up in a neighbor’s house down the street. That is why I recommend shotguns. They are much more lethal at close range and are much less lethal at a distance. A couple of thicknesses of sheet rock will slow birdshot considerably.

jt @ 12:15

Do you recall the brand of solar powered security lights you purchased? I am looking into this and solar powered floodlights. Some seem to be okay, some not at all.

Cloud9 – at 08:49 wrote

This brings up a point. The cheapest rifles on the market tend to be those from the old communist block. The cheapest ammunition is from the same source. All of this ammo tends to be berdan primed. The primer compounds are very hydroscopic. Whatever you shoot must be cleaned, but if you are shooting military surplus, they have to be cleaned especially well.<

Conventional wisdom is, running a few patches doused in an ammonia/water solution (like Windex) through the barrel once you’re done shooting will neutralize the salts in the residue, and you can then do conventional cleaning at your leisure.

The surprise of the day, the cheapest rifle on the range was one of the hardest hitting with the loudest report. A Mosin Nagant 1944 carbine.<

Boy, no kidding! Those things are like mini-cannons! The Soviets made them to go for the win! And with power only slightly less than a 30.06 and steel jacketed ammo, you can a hole through almost anything!

(If you want an additional thrill, try shooting a Mosin at dusk or at night. The unburned powder and particles ignite the moment they leave the muzzle and you get a fireball the size of a pumpkin. The story is that Soviet forces armed with Mosins were a disadvantage in night combat because enemy forces knew where to aim based on the Mosins’ fireballs…)

FW, you are so right. We mused about what it would be like to shoot the thing in the dark, but the range closed at sunset. It was hammered into me that if you shoot it you clean it. It seems your ammonia water solution would work if you followed it with a well oiled patch in a bolt action or blow back. The gas operated stuff still needs to be stripped and cleaned or the sleeves for the gas pistons will rust. At least that has been our experience in Florida where the humidity is nearly a hundred percent.

Felicia could put up a Black Widow Spider Warning sign, with The Princess in full color, the red glowing bright. I think I’ll put out some glue trap on the walkway, and front porch. The big rat glue traps would stick to someone shoes. They would let forth with a long string of prafanity as they did a Tar Baby dance. Then its bright lights in the eyes, and some home brewed capsascin and woad and urine mess in the face. Then and only then some serious stuff.

I would also prepare a band of strings and ribons to brush gainst their faces. Easy to make uyp, and just taqpe in place at night. Or transparent fish filiment. Teenagers would be the most inventive.

Moison-Nagant 1944 - 7.62×54

Cloud9 and FW-

This rifle is the single most cost-effective shooter at distance and can be made reasonabley accurate.

The elongated 7.62 (just a little over the US .308 of 7.62×51) has substantial ballistic energy delivery at distance. Consider 800 yard hits a distinct possibility with the right scope and patient practice.

Lily – at 14:49

Be sure and keep the woad root(Isastis Tinctora / wild indigo). As you know, its a powerful anti-viral.

I’ll be including wild indigo in my extracts for personal, family and friend usage.

Well, those of us in metropolitan areas are probably going to have to bug out anyway. Having a bug out plan would be extremely good.

Bars on windows, blackout curtains, infection sign, boards, ask people to call before coming over, check out doorbell ringers from 2nd floor window if possible, dogs, etc.

A shotgun is safer than a military rfle as you dont have to worry about bullets going through the walls of your neighbours.

NS1, You are correct, Russian snipers gave the German Army fits with the longer barreled version of this little rifle. I suspect the reason the muzzle blast is so pronounced is because the cartridge was designed for a longer barrel. Still, it is probably one of the best buys on the market. This round is still used in medium machine guns and the very respectable Dragunov. That is probably why the ammunition is so cheap.

The warning shot is an excellent point that I wish I had included in my above “gun fight tips”. A proper warning shot, if possible, is an excellent idea. We live in a two story home with all bedrooms upstairs. My plan if I hear a “bump” in the night is to first grab my trusty Remington 870 12ga short barrel and make sure that the bedrooms are secure. If I hear the bump downstairs again, I plan to stand at the top of the stairs, blast a hole in the ceiling, cycle the action (the meanest most ominous sound on the planet) and then yell to get the hell out of my house or else their next. I would expect that this will solve most any home invasion problem (although I’ll probably have to have the carpet downstairs professionally cleaned, if you know what I mean).

Anyone willing to stay after that little demonstration is willing to risk death and, more importantly, it must be assumed that they are willing to inflict it. The next shot will hit center mass—no hesitation, no second thought. There is no innocent explanation for someone who doesn’t flee in the face of that demonstration. It is kill or be killed time. And unless you are convinced it is kill or be killed time, there is never a justification to fire upon another human being.

But please don’t use the warning shot unless you know without the possibility of error where your shot will terminate. So don’t shot the ceiling with anything but a scattergun. You are responsible for every round—both before and after it is fired. If you don’t understand the dangers of over-penetration, then frankly you are not qualified to defend yourself with a firearm. You are a danger to yourself and others. Please either disarm or get trained.

PowerHungry-

Shotguns are woefully inadequate in hostage situations.

You will have no opportunity but to relinquish your weapon if the perp reaches anyone else in your household. Have a handy small backup that you are very competent using at short range concealed on your body.

If you have family (children) in the house, please train them to group together in one location out of your fireline and the perps fireline that you can continually secure as you clear your house. Provide and practice a movement plan if you detect more than one perp spliting you and your family.

Warning shots give your location, reduce your capacity and have little to no effect on a drugged or trained perp.

Consider the advantage of surprise and concealment.

Can you put pool acid into a spray gun?

Acid water baloons?

Ok so you can shoot bad people but you can’t do anyhting else to them? Did I cross the line with acid?

Watch Dog – at 00:49 asked:

>Can you put pool acid into a spray gun?<

Oven cleaner or wasp spray have roughly similar results to acid, and come already packed in a convenient to carry and aim, pressurized container that can fire a stream further than any squirt gun.

Speaking hypothetically, of course. (cough, cough)

Ok cough, cough too. Thank you

NS1 @ 00:30

Good points all. My Glock 17 lives in my nightstand and would accompany me in a home invasion scenario. But really, in a hostage situation, there are few good alternatives unless the bad guy makes a huge mistake. Avoidance is the only effective strategy. That’s why my dog sleeps in the house and why I’ll have to be dead before any home invader will make it upstairs.

Personally, I have no intention of “clearing the house”. I understand that others will feel differently and I can respect that but my defense has no offensive plan. I’m planting myself on the high ground between the bad guys and my family. Clearing puts the bad guy(s) in the superior defensive tactical position. And what happens if you’re clearing and make a mistake? Your family is now at imminent risk. If tshtf, I won’t have anything we can’t live without downstairs.

My wife’s job is to consolidate the kids in the master bedroom.

Believe me, I understand the tactical considerations of surprise and concealment. But I place priority upon deterrence and confrontation avoidance. Surprise is great, but can also force someone to make a stupid decision that they might not otherwise make. And my 30 round bandolier means I can spare a warning shot. Concealment is a given.

And to the non-gun people out there, I know this all sounds a bit “nuts”, but understand that the reason gun owners think through these scenarios is not because we lust after a fight but because we treat the responsibility of lethal force with the deadly seriousness that it requires. We won’t have the time or the ability to clearly think through these issues if we are face to face with them. It’s similar to the prepping mentality prevalent here.

Now, we better get off the gun theme because that’s frowned on around here for various valid reasons (scaring off the newbies and the fact that it is a divisive and distracting issue which is not directly related to flu pandemic preparation/avoidance).

You are directly on-topic and we’ve featured some important issues for others to consider prior to using a weapon in home defense.

I have been thinking about little blue flashing LED lights- one in each window- hooked up to a 12 volt car battery (charged by the sun). The idea is to have an aproximation of the flashing light that warns of a car alarm in a fancy car. I won’t have an alarm- just the flashing lights. I imagine that anybody looking for food will be looking for abandoned food- the people have fled or died. Guns and being a tough guy are going to count for little against a virus. “Piss off all you viri on the bottom of my boot or I’m going to shoot you!!” “So help me God!! I’ll show you no mercy! Now back up and get off my property! and tell all your virus friends that I have a gun!”

I am sure there are those out there that have worked on hostage rescue teams. They might want to comment on the subject of hostages from their point of view. As a classification officer, I have viewed it from the other end. In a hostage situation, if you surrender your weapon all is lost including the hostage. A shotgun is not the best weapon under these circumstances, within two or three feet of the target the pattern is about the size of a baseball. At some point he will expose himself. With no backup and no other option, I would take the shot. A slug would give you a better chance of not wounding your loved one. If I am taken hostage, don’t even waist our time, shoot the sucker.

clark – at 04:57

You may want to get the siren horn to go with the lights. The one below should work fine off of a 6 volt lantern battery. you will only run it for a minute or so at a time if ever so it may run off a 9 volt battery as well.

http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/ProductDetail.asp?SKU=958-8111&desc=SA-4P

We may be getting ahead of ourselves here. Prepping and exchange of information is the nature of this FW, but hostage negotiation is waaayyyy beyond our respective capabilities, IMHO. In the USA today the highly trained hostage negotiators in most law enforcement agencies have a success rate exceeding 98% (probably closer to 100%). The snipers that support the negotiator can knock the “eye out of a knat” at 300 yards. I think we’ll all agree that prevention of home invasion (reasonable suggestions above) is the most important task that we have before us….and having a plan of negotiation if a family member is taken hostage IF negotiators are unavailable. Joseph Wambaugh clearly made the case in his book, “The Onion Fields” that to give up one’s weapon is mistake one and likely fatal. Just do your best to talk your way out of a difficult situation….”reward” with barter items; cigarettes, water, food, meds, hopefully getting something (hostage) in return. If available….call 911 before you do anything and let the professionals bring a difficult situation to its proper conclusion. Remember, these negotiators and their support personnel whether SWAT or otherwise, are among the best trained in the world today. Their goal is to bring everyone out alive…..underline – everyone. I don’t mean to over simplify a terribly difficult situation - so please accept my words in the spirit that it is meant.

Cloud9 – at 07:06 – “A slug would give you a better chance of not wounding your loved one.” My friend, I respectfully disagree. I own a highly accurate 12 ga. 870 Wingmaster with Hastings rifled barrel and Aimpoint sighting devise. With sabot slugs I can tell you from personal, extensive use over the last 15 years with this specific extremely fine weapon….as good a shot that I am – fuggetaboutit! Too many variables – not accurate enough even in the best of conditions. Defer to the pros (if possible) or have a plan as described above.

I know this isn’t as thrilling as assault rifles and acid bombs, but after packing my preps away last night after adding new stuff, I had an idea for simple home defense. My problem is that I have several 6′ tall windows around the house, french door in front, sliding glass in back. I discovered that I had enough big (heavy) furniture to block all my windows and doors, leaving only two solid wood doors with deadbolts accessible. This has the advantage of not only blocking the windows and doors so people can’t look in and see that you are prepared, but also makes an obstacle to slow them down entering the house and gives me time to react. I’m also going to buy some battery operated door/window alarms if time and money permits but their are other items higher on my list (like a solar oven).

I knew a fellow a number of years ago that was burglarized several times at his place of business and wasn’t doing well enough financially to install an alarm system, roll downs, window/door gates or bars….so, he got a little innovative (exactly what we all have to do here). The gentleman went to the local lumber yard a bought 1″ diameter wood dowels - painted them black and put them in place on all windows with Elmer’s Glue!! It worked.

Wow! Some really good ideas. When I started this thread, I did not expect so much response. Thank you. How about a super soaker filled with 90% rubbing alcohol? Hose them down and light a flare. They have the choice of going away or being the main attraction in the pandemic fire parade.

mmmelody -

I like the dowel idea (I use a metal version on my sliding truck window) but my concern it that they will just smash the glass. I think putting my plywood hurricane shutters up will be step 1, door/window alarms will be step 2, and blocking the windows and doors with heavy furniture will be step 3. If someone goes through all the work of getting in than they deserve a 12ga round to the chest.

My main concern is them making enough noise to wake me up at night. I don’t want to have to do 8 hour watches with only two of us.

I’m also going to fortify my perimeter fence and gates. Luckily I have natural bamboo growing in my backyard so I can cut some down and make some spears to great a fence jumper (if the need arises).

Get a dog. Love him. He’ll love you. He’ll give his life for you.

If you are all thinking hostage scenarios, why not take self defense courses for your teens, they can teach you. Certainly it would come in handy. We have carjackings at our malls, 2 kidnapping within 5 miles of my home.(adults). I personally do not take any kind of intimidation well, but am not trained. Perhaps this is the time to enroll in such a course. While I instinctively react defensively as an almost automatic reflex, many people don’t.

If this went to a pandemic I would not expect any good from any person who came to my door in the dead of nite.

Lily – at 11:55 - excellent suggestion! Training = Preparation = Confidence = Self-control = Survival. If permitted in your state purchase a small pepper spray canister that can be attached to your car/house keys and keep in your hand when walking to your car or home. Pepper spray works in most cases, but not all. A confidence builder for any user of pepper spray is to carefully try it on yourself. Spray a small amount on your finger and apply to your cheekbone under your eyes…..have water nearby and wash your hands well. You’ll quickly understand what an effective tool pepper spray really is.

In fact, you don’t have to wait for the threat of a pandemic to implement any of the above….do it now!

just be careful - things like pepper spray can be used ON you, too!

I think it’s a good idea to practice shooting a gun before you actually have to, as well. As stupid as guns are… if you have one, better feel comfortable using it (physically, psychologically, emotionally etc.)

Hostages?!? Hostage situations?!? Are you people crazy???

Nobody is gonna hold you hostage for your preps. If things should ever get that bad, give ‘em the damned food and be done with them.

This has gotten as bad as the Guns and Roses thread a few months back…

ricewiki – at 12:14 - “things like pepper spray can be used ON you, too!” I agree and as I am sure you realize…so can firearms.

I personally would never suggest that anyone purchase a firearm unless they; know the law, get several hours of training (local law, handling, shooting and cleaning). I’d rather see people utilize some of the preventive measures mentioned above and on other threads on the FW. Owning and using a firearm is a huge responsibility that many people are not equipped to handle.

Bronco Bill, Kidnappings happen here in the boonies. At Xmas time carjackings, In the last year 2 Kidnappings locally. We knew some wealthy people in our day, and I recall talking to a few who had taken lessons in how to evade such things, in a car or in their homes. It is not likely to happen, but look at Italy, look at Mexico. In Italy the well to do used alternate routes to evade kidnappers. I recall a few years back an executive was kidnapped, I think killed, here in Jersey. It is not completly paranoid. South America, hah,..You can expect to be robbed in Buenos Aires. If we do have civil unrest I expect the national guard will have plans in effect, for the large key cities. For us rural folk, I don’t think it will be too bad. For those in cities that are bordoring some places, like Camden, Newark, Trenton, Plainfield, I fully expect they would have roving thugs. Not very nice people.They are not nice to their own, murder with no remorse. Even those of the gentler sex. One woman ran a man down, He died slowly on her windshield in her garage while she went out and checked now and then. A friend helped her dispose of the body. Oh did she weep in court. Poor thing.Perhaps our imaginations run a bit wild, but doing some mental exercising isn’t out of hand.

Tami 9:18 The solar security lights are from a company called sun-mate from california. They are pretty bright for a solar light, and you can put them anywhere…..I got them in trees! As to the gun issue , you can order police style non-lethal taser guns online without a license!

jon c – at 11:29- ‘How about a super soaker filled with 90% rubbing alcohol? Hose them down and light a flare. They have the choice of going away or being the main attraction in the pandemic fire parade.’

Well, that’s bound to be effective but do you really want to make anyone a human shish-kebob?

Please also reconsider if there are any children in or near your household. Most of the kids I know(including my own) would never be able to leave a ‘loaded’ super-soaker alone, no matter what was in it:-)

MaMa – at 13:09 - I must be getting old…as are my kids. I just realized (remembered, actually) what a “super soaker” is…..jeeze, what an awful idea!

Lily --- Kidnappings happen here in the boonies.

Uh, yeah. Okay. But think about this, if you will. If things become THAT bad, that would likely mean that power has been out for a while. Gasoline supplies have dried up. Water is completely unavailable.

Carjackings aren’t gonna happen ‘cuz there won’t be any gas in them (except for those who have the money to store several hundred gallons at their home).

You’re trying to compare oranges and apples here. SOuth America is a whole different world than North America, especially the US. We do not have, and probably won’t generally have, roving gangs that are going to kidnap anyone and hold them for ransom. What would be paid? “Yeah, we got yer kid sister right here. Gives us a steak and some propane, and we’ll let her go…”

I remember the story of the woman who ran down the man. She had been out partying all night long. She parked her car in her garage and went inside and slept it off. When she discovered the body the next morning, she called a friend to help her dispose of the body and the car seat that the blood had dripped on. The authorities estimated it took him about 4 hours to die, being stuck in the windshield the way they figured he was. She never reported it…police noticed that her windshield had a big hole in it and pulled her over.

You’re reaching….

Man alive, I sure hope none of you folks have kids in the house — guns, chemicals, claymores can all get your curious kids unless you are on hyper-24 vigilence with them. (I’m not anti-gun— I just remember the day my 14 year old brother decided he needed to “scare” some crows off the dog food dish. He got out my dad’s shotgun — despite strong family rules to never touch — and leaned out the window and completely vaporized a crow — an amazing episode but could have ended differently with a little more experimentation). Don’t trust your kids to leave firearms alone. Don’t do it.

Make human behavior work for you — gates, obstacles, dogs are all things people don’t want to deal with. I honestly think that having your toddler take a dump on the sidewalk in front of the house will deter quite a few. Closed curtains, single broken window and garbage cans and contents strewn over the yard can make it look like you’ve already been hit. Heck, spray paint some tacky graffiti on your garage door — you can repaint later.

BroncoBill – at 13:24 - As I recall - that woman actually told the poor guy how “sorry” she was - never helping him at any point. The Medical Examiner, again as I recall, testified that if medical aid was rendered in a timely fashion…he would have very likely survived. Lily, my dear I think you address the “poor thing” label to the wrong person in this case.

Another memory of that story - the woman went out that night with her friends - leaving the victim still on the windshield! Unbelievable!!!

No, I’m just saying strange things happen under normal conditions and people ar pretty heartless and indifferent to the damage they cause in normal times. They will be worse under stress.. I don’t really think I will have trouble, I’m very low key in many ways, but there will be people, if this happens, who will face some tough situations. O.K. Rio and Buenas Aires are down south. We also have a lot of South Americans and Centrol Americans, Columbians, and Mexicans, and all of them are not hard working laborers. There is trouble in River City. We aren’t in Music Man times, when a Trouble with a capital T Rhymes with Pool. It isn’t 1918, it is 2006, a different world, a different mentality.Sure I’m reaching, I pull out something or other in my memory banks to illustrate my thought. But while my thoughts make sense to me, they don’t always make sense to others. Sorry.

<u poor thing, was sarcastic. She wept buckets.

nopower

Fastening some barbed wire or razor wire to those plywood shutters would help deter as well.

My preps in this category to-date:

I have 6 “peep-hole” type video cameras around the outside of the house plus a wireless alarm system, the yard also has several hard-wired pressure sensors buried in what I figure are key spots – behind spots of concealment, near the gates, paths of concealment coming to the house, etc., and a couple of electric eyes also in key spots. I have plywood cut for the inside of my windows and doors, and made square frames out of re-rod for the outside. The plywood has predrilled holes and if/when needed all I need to do is drill (at the premarked spots and insert some special bolts I found, they have one end threaded like a regular bolt, the other end is threaded like a lag bolt, then use wing nuts to fasten. Also the sheets of plywood have one side is painted to look like our current window blinds. The outside re-rod frames are hinged at the top and the bottom two corners have long bolts that will slide through holes into the inside room and fastened with wing nuts. Again with those I have all the correct spots marked & ready to drill. The re-rod frames are “filled” with heavy wire mesh (to stop rocks, bricks, etc.) and have fasteners so I can add a couple loops of razor wire if I really feel there is a need. Bought 3–50’ rolls of razor wire from a local fencing contractor @ $80 per roll including freight & tax.

Depending on what is going down, I’ll first install the inside plywood, if the situation degrades further I’ll install the outside frames and if it gets real bad the razor wire goes on. When we redid our landscaping 4 years ago I included some nasty thorn bearing thingies under all the windows at the front of the house and on each side of our front step. The backyard is completely enclosed with 6′ tall wooden fencing and those windows out back are too high to easily get to and break in. At each entry I have another spot premarked on the inside & outside. If need be I’ll use my hole saw and install some Genova pipe thingies I rigged up. These will allow me to drop a pepper spray grenade at the feet of anyone persisting at breaking down one of the doors.

This may sound paranoid to some (perhaps it is LOL) but I have a small talent for and enjoy building such things. Plus in 15 years we have had two break-ins, not when we were at home but just the same…

Now my turn - sorry Lily - I didn’t catch the satirical side to your comment. ;-)

Lily—don’t be sorry. You have your opinion very well expressed here. I’m just trying to point out that the scenario you painted, in my very humble opinion, is extremely extreme. What we don’t need here on the Wiki is paranoia. I’m not saying “you’re” paranoid, but newbies coming onto the Wiki will read this thread (again, much like the Guns ‘n Roses thread) and get scared off, telling all their friends that we’re a bunch of wacko nutjobs here, talking about kidnappings and how to defend our homes from mobs invading every neighborhood…

The details being spoken about by those newbies would pass like the old game of telephone: I whisper a story into your ear, then you try to whisper the same story into someone else’s ear, then they do the same with someone else, and so on down the line. When the story gets back to you, you wouldn’t even recognize it as the story you told…

hey guys, I think this thread might be getting a bit long, a post of mine just got ‘eaten’:-) I’ll try again.

mmmelody47 – at 13:15, yep- a really awful idea. When you are considering how to defend your homes and families, think about what can go wrong with those plans too.

This was covered somewhere recently so I’ll use it as an example-Boobytrapping your home or yard might seem like a good idea at first. What if your neighbor was coming to check on you, to see if you’re okay? What if you were sick or hurt and could phone out for help, but couldn’t physically go out and disable the traps so someone could safely come and help you? What if you had a house fire and everyone had to rush out of the house in the middle of the night? Think carefully before you plan on something that might kill or maim someone.

EOD - I like the heavy wire mesh idea for windows I don’t want to put plywood on. My plywood slides into a metal track at the top and bottom of the windows (windows are recessed into concrete walls). I could probably build metal frames with wire mesh that would slide into the same tracks giving me the option of light and visibility while still having protection. I also like the pepper grenade idea for the doors :)

Boarding up the windows in the summer without power? I don’t think so. Guns? Not for me. I like the idea of hiding preps throughout the house and leaving out a few for thugs to take. If they’re armed, I’ll be hiding and praying to God. Not much defence, but I’d RATHER be a wimp than dead. Who knows how much training they have to overpower you and your gun. I’d be more afraid that they will shoot you first, before you even have a chance to fire a warning shot. HIDE! Hide yourself and hide your preps!

So everyone of us will do what suits us when or if the time does come. To those who are just reading this, and are not used to us, it is all a mental exercise. It is probable that very little of this will happen, and most of the preparations discussed are merely mental diversions, and will not be enacted. The world is a crazy place as it is, it would become even more interesting if a pandemic does hit us.If you want to hand out preps, hand out preps at your front door, if you want to hide, hide. Just don’t assume this exercise is completly serious. To some it may be, to others its exploring possible options, to be enacted on if it suits, discarded if it doesn’t. It just won’t be a replay of 1918.

I like the silent approach…go to HomeDepot and for around $120, you can purchase a SOLAR POWERED electric fence! It charges during the day and zaps the Hel_ out of them at night! Because they are thin wires, they cannot be seen in the dark :)

I have one of those fences hooked up to 100w solar panels and a big deep cycle batt. If you are wearing rubber soled shoes you get a little zap if you are bearfoot you get a big zap. You could run a ground wire parallel maybe to help increse the zap, but it is not much of a deturant unless you are a cow or horse.

My english background keeps cringing every time I see this thread title—maybe we could change the title and bump the content, mods?? It makes us here at fluwikie look illiterate, which is not a crime, just doesn’t inspire inteligence/confidence :)

I think this is a valid subject.

Just because we don’t like to talk about crime, does crime not exist. should we not contemplate the possibility that disorder may exist during a pandemic. The federal government is planning for this possibility.

Mother of Five – at 14:50 --- Melanie haz brochet dis subjek on a fuw treads on da Wikee. ;-)

oh, and I’m sorry if my spelling sucks.

Masked Woman – at 14:07

I think I may understand your fears and cautions and each of us has different abilities and capabilities and predeterminations when it comes to any type of defense. A couple of things for you to think through… With many break-ins today getting in quickly, grabbing as much as you can and getting out quickly is the usual M.O. Under the conditions we speak of that may well change. What if the intruders decide the cavalry isn’t coming and since we did find some things of use why not search this place from top to bottom? Also under those conditions, consider that any one out and about are will either be desperate or those who simply don’t give a s*#t about anything. Expect that second group to be more brutal and/or ruthless. Those other folks just looking for food will themselves be a source of prey when out in the open and moving around, they will fall victim first.

“I’d RATHER be a wimp than dead”.

Not to be blunt, but under these extreme conditions the question may well be “would you rather kill (in defense) or be killed?”

As mentioned in many of these similar threads. Taking up arms is not a light decision and for those who do you can never get enough training and the question you MUST first ask yourself is the “kill or be killed” question. Not everyone has the makeup to be that way and there should be no shame in either decision.

jon c - I think you’re being singled out for misspelling the word “Invasion.” We could probably start a new thread on “misspelled words” and grammatical errors. I’d be right up there at the top of the list! Well maybe not actually the top of the list….BB spelled “the” wrong above….other than that his post was fine ;-)

Thanks, The only way I made it through school was I always had a dictionary with me. I did great in creative writing and am even published in a few small papers. Obviously, these were well edited. Hopefully my spelling will be forgiven here as looking up correct spelling all the time will break my train of thought. My train gets shorter the older I get.Heheehe

I did?!? ;-)

You see? This is the problem. Discussions about whether and how to employ lethal force are very controversial. Not that controversy is necessarily bad. It’s just that the view of the Mods (as I understand it) is that such discussions don’t advance the purposes of this site. And it is their site.

If you look at my posts above, it is obvious that I’ve decided that there may be situations in which I will choose to apply lethal force. Other people look at all of the factors and choose differently. I absolutely respect that. In fact, at one point in my life, I was a hard core pacifist—registered with selective service as a conscientious objector & opposed the first Iraq war.

I think everyone would acknowledge that this is an important debate. But it isn’t one that is going to happen here. The Mods have been very clear about that for a very long time. You may disagree and that’s your right. But I’m convinced that it isn’t going to change the policy here.

So far, this thread hasn’t turned into a pro/anti gun shouting match and I commend everyone on that. But if past experience is a predictor of future behavior, it will soon. So let’s not shred each other over this and force the Mods to shut down this otherwise very helpful thread. Ok? Let’s just stop talking about the guns whether it be pro or con.

And I apologize for posting about them in the first place. I should have known better.

PH --- At least we haven’t taken the path of “How many 105mm Howitzer Rounds I Own”, or “How to Build Your Very Own M1A1 Abrams Tank..and Use It” on this thread. LOL!

Your post is well taken…there may well be situations in which lethal force is necessary. It is an important debate, but each individual must decide for themself what they will do in any given situation. And a guarantee: once in that situation, there’s a very good chance that their original “unstressed” decision will change dramatically!

I posted this to address questions that seemed to pop up again and again. Not as a pro gun, not pro gun post. more of a “is a generator too loud and might it bring bad people?” post. I think that it is a subject that is as important to concider as how much water is needed. I wish we did not have to have this disscussion, but not all people are good and think about their fellow man. I have seen starvation and soldiers take food from hungry civilians. I hope that nothing bad happens, but I have built defensive obsticals around my property. A few months ago someone drove right past my place and ransacked my neighbors place. I think it was because my place looked like a not so easy target

I posted this to address questions that seemed to pop up again and again. Not as a pro gun, not pro gun post. more of a “is a generator too loud and might it bring bad people?” post. I think that it is a subject that is as important to concider as how much water is needed. I wish we did not have to have this disscussion, but not all people are good and think about their fellow man. I have seen starvation and soldiers take food from hungry civilians. I hope that nothing bad happens, but I have built defensive obsticals around my property. A few months ago someone drove right past my place and ransacked my neighbors place. I think it was because my place looked like a not so easy target

oopps

Bad guys are real. In my first career, I knew a guy named Herbert Lee Evans. He liked to murder and rape little girls. We linked him to the murder of a number of little girls spanning three states, Louisiana, Texas, and Florida. We nailed him for the murder of a 12 year old in Homestead. One night after a long interview, the devil took off his mask. I asked him, Lee, why did you kill those little girls. His response, “I didn’t like to hear them #itch.”

I have seen the devil. He is very personable. He has the skills of a consummate politician. If you ever met him, he would make you like him. The scary thing is, he looks just like you and me.

The odds of you meeting a person like Lee are very slim. You have a much better chance of getting run over by a truck. If you do, God help you to help yourself. You can sleep easy at night, because you have never met such a person. Me, I can never walk away from the memory.

The face of evil could be that neighbor you have or have not met yet. The BTK murderer was that way.

Actually, the title “Home Invations” made me think of invitations, and I still think signs inviting people to help will keep everyone except your dearest friends away.

sorry that was my bad. (I could lie and say that is what I was trying to imply) hehe

Cloud9 – at 17:35

Thank you for sharing that; we easily forget. Thank goodness most people are pretty decent when it’s called for.

Power Hungry,

And your point about the mods would be….?

PH,

All of your mods are liberals, which is not news to anyone here. This one, however, is a Christian theologian who grew up shooting and picked up her NRA “marksman” rating at the age of 8. I don’t own a gun at the moment, for a variety of reasons, but I have plenty of experience handloading my own ammo. Don’t jump to conclusions.

Lorelle – at 18:08 I wish I had seen it in a movie. I left the system a long time ago. Now, I teach.

It is my understanding that Lee died of liver cancer. Sometimes there is justice, but most of the time there is just us.

Unfortunatly the bad sticks stronger in peoples memories. Shame that we can’t bottle the good and uncork it now and then, a bit like the song, If I Had Time in a Bottle. I had a mother in law who had a lot of charism, but always harped on whatever small slight or problem she had way back when. I’m the opposite, I remember the best, and only recall the worst when my memory gets a jog.But I never discount that there is good and evil, and even the best are human and have conflicting pulls, the old ego, super ego and the id. For whatever reasons, neuro or otherwise we will always have psychopaths among us.

Melanie-18:22 I think we have a great mix of people here, You included, We are all Fluwikians, trying to work together for a common goal. You rock! Thanks for being a good MOD.

Melanie-18:18 & 18:22.

Actually, I was not trying to make a point about the Mods. Believe me, if I want to make a point about you, you’ll know. I’m not the oblique type.

The point I WAS making was that everyone can believe whatever they want about the gun topic but they’re simply not going to debate one another here. That’s the reality of the universe that you have created. Trying to debate guns in this virtual universe is like trying to repeal the law of gravity in the real universe. One can bitch about gravity, deny it exists, rage against gravity, and call gravity unconstitutional. But in the end, gravity just is. And a debate about gravity is not going to change it. So, in this virtual universe, we all have better things to apply our abilities towards than a pointless and ultimately doomed debate. So let’s skip it and move on.

And not that it is worth anything, but I agree with your policy. It’s just too divisive and distracts from advancing the ball. There are lots of great places to have that debate and lots of good reasons to be passionate about it. But not here. There is other more pressing business at hand.

I didn’t assume one way or another regarding your gun history/proficiency. Not sure why you thought that. Did you assume something about me? I imagine you heard an echo of someone else yelling at you about the topic. I can only imagine that it happens to you quite a bit. In any event, I had no intent to attack you or the other Mods. I have great respect and appreciation for what you have done and are doing here.

Your history with guns, as well as mine, is interesting. People’s views change. I grew up with guns & hunting. And, as I said, then I became a pacifist. Obviously, now I’m not. So my pendulum has, by my count, one more cycle than yours.

We’re all a bit more complex in the real universe than in this one. Perhaps that is why Jesus said, “Judge not, lest you be judged.” We usually get it wrong.

Oh shoot—uhm . . . I mean darn. I’ve gone and done it again. I just can’t help myself.

But at least I’m not the one that brought politics into it.

But speaking of that, good for you for being a liberal. I am too! Thomas Hobbes, John Locke, Adam Smith, John Stuart Mill—We liberals have quite the legacy!

Peace out.

Somehow I having a feeling the term liberal has different meanings to different people, and especially to those across time :)

So anyhooo, the question was how to “PREVENT” home invasions. So after my front yard mike picks up the sound of foot steps and I peak outside and see someone with a crow bar. First I fire up the siren. If that does not work I talk into the mike that goes to the amplifier that goes to the all weather horn speaker on the roof. I inform the perp that if he leaves now he may make it out of the neighborhood safely. Then I announce my address and give a description of the perp. He will leave with all the neighbors watching.

Cost of the equipment…. $200.00. Cost of saving your preps…. Priceless.

Concerning the possibility of becoming involved in litigation because of efforts to protect our castles in time of social unrest, or any other time, for that matter, I subscribe to the idea that it is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.

Castle Doctrine laws, btw, have already been passed in Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Mississippi and South Dakota. They are being considered in over a dozen other states. These laws make it legal to stand your ground and defend your home from intruders.

I don’t even want to think about the cost of my surveilance (sp?) system. I am trying to stock 40 pounds of dogfood a week on top of the 40 we actually use.Plus containers to keep the vermin out of the dogfood…ick!

At Costco, I recently bought a pack of 10 window/door alarm sensors. They were about 9 dollars for the whole pack and came with 20 AAA Duracell batteries. I priced the batteries separately and they were MORE expensive! These units are two pieces that have a sticky adhesive backing and mount on your door & door frame or window & sill. When the door/window is open, the two pieces are separated and the circuit is closed (magnetically I believe) so they then screech like you wouldn’t believe. They draw no power until/unless they are activated so, in theory, they could last 1–3 years before you need to replace the batteries depending on the quality of your batteries and the number of activations.

I’ve been using them for about 1 month and they really work well. Definitely will give me a heads up if someone has broken in. Plus, I have fake ADT signs and stickers that I got off of Ebay (they look absolutely authentic) so the perp will probably think I have a nicer alarm “system” than I really have.

I can’t locate them on the Costco site, but here they are somewhere else for $29.99: http://tinyurl.com/qjlme Might want to check your local Costco first to see if you can get them for about $20.00 cheaper.

I have two 20-gauge shotguns and several cases of ammo. Pepper-spray too. Yes I plan on using it if I have to. Several large kitchen knives too. Plus I took taekwondo for thirteen years! I just got a picture of myself fighting someone with a nanomask on. haha! Okay.. these weapons wont prevent someone from coming in though. Hmmm. A large dog sounds like a great idea!

centella – at 23:07 - I love it! Priceless indeed.

Power Hungry - thanks for the alarm link. I don’t have a costco card (but I know someone) but I do belong to Sam’s and BJs so I will check them. I was planning on spending $10 a piece based on my internet searching, so this is a good deal. This is something I have been meaning to do anyway, not just for panflu prep.

I have seen those alarms at big lots stores on sale for $10. I almost bought them, but my dog is a better alarm. If someone or something gets within 200yrds he usually lets me know.

With fishing line, it would be very easy to rig these little alarms up with trip wires and put them around the outside of your property. We have lots of critters around so I would put the trip wire about 3 feet high.

Jon c: Not only is my german shepherd a good alarm for human predators, but she also alerts me whenever deer approach my environs. I could have taken many a shot from my kitchen window. In fact I did once, just to scare a deer away. I shot between its legs, and it jumped straight up about 3 feet. The deer tear up my orchard trees. I have had to put tall circulars of hogwire around every young growing tree for periods up to five years. Also you don’t want to forget to put plastic wrap around the trunks of the trees during the fall and winter to keep the rabbits and rodents from girdling them and killing them.

Anyway, during the travails of a pandemic those deer will be in my sights, meat on the table. And if it is winter, the meat will keep quite well hanging from the rafters of the barn.

BroncoBill, How many 105mm Howitzer rounds DO you have? I like the way you think. By the way…where do I find plans for building an M1A1 Abrams tank? LOL!

BroncoBill at 16:27: You are wrong in one respect as far as “unstressed decisions” being different from subsequent realities.

If somebody breaks into my home, they are dead. I can only assume that his intent is evil, And I do not know how many more of him (or her) there are. I will live with the trauma. In a full-blown pandemic trauma will be like confetti. It will be the “sea you swim in”.

Rifles, handguns, stunguns, big dogs, mace, bats, golf clubs, hornet spray, over cleaner spray, door and window alarms; barred windows; security signs, etc……the good thing is no matter what our morale/political views are, there is something in this list that each of us can have to help protect ourselves from an intruder.

I guess the most important thing is to have your home appear “uninviting” and to have a plan that the whole family is aware of. We don’t want to end up hurting one another in a state of panic. Treat it like a fire drill - have everyone know what is going to happen and how to react. Certainly not fail-proof, but should help.

Survival is an incredible and very powerful instinct. Especially when it comes to one’s family. Hopefully, most would-be intruders will hear and see this very early on and decide that it is better to “hit” a warehouse or store rather than a home where they are going to fight to the death to save their family.

What really scares me is that drug addicts withdrawing from their last fix and people who are starving, or have children who are starving, are just as desperate as those of us that are trying to protect their family. This is where it could get really ugly and unpredictable.

MM-11:39 You may consider buying a salt lick from your local farm suppy store to put out to attract those deer if you need meat. We have antelope, deer and elk here. I don’t hunt, but will If we have to. It is not sporting to use the salt lick but I will neve hunt for sport. I picked up some military trip wire to use as rabit snares and as a third fence. I will tie cans to that one.

Anybody think about the best way to steal your neighbor’s preps after you’ve run out? Thoughts on good offensive weapons and stratagies? Camo paint…..

It seems to me that the best thing to do to prevent having desperate neighbors in the first place. Let’s get our communities prepared so that no one has to go hungry.

jon c: I have chummed-in deer with salt licks. Not around here, but nearby for my relatives who like to come out and hunt in the Fall. It does work. I am just not into it. More into bird hunting. Guess that is out this year unless North America somehow escapes contamination this Fall.

MM—

Actually, I can envision a situation in which hunters will be enlisted as volunteers for surveillance purposes by having them bring in migratory waterfowl for BF testing.

How do they “know” if wild migratory birds are infected? They must audit populations somehow . . .

But alas, we are off topic.

PH-12:38 Ducks Unlimited members are being enlisted

Stale urine outside, free for all, even the most indigent. Winchester inside. I still like the idea of dousing the perp with some woad and turning him and his clothes blue. I like to amuse myself no matter how serious the issue. I just don’t think most of us will have to face this, so I’m not spending money on this. A. they will loot. Stores. B. they will carjack cars with gas. C. They will go close to their own homes. D. Drug Addicts will be in withdrawal, and will prey on each other. E. I think most of our neighbors will remain civilized. If any fool decides I’m fair game, I will regard them as fair game, and will be as uncivilized as it is possible to imagine. Pity, law go by the boards. I’ll eat, not be eaten.The movies of the Home Alone genre are not all fluff. Women and children are not fluff. Men might have a muscular advantage, thats all. Home defense is inbred in our genes.Queenbury rules out the window. We will use whatever we each decide is necessary. gypsies used to wear massive rings in case of a fist fight, good as brass knuckles. I think I will get a tazer gun. I have wasp spray. And empty gallon jugs for liquid mixtures. I always cook without a recipe. I like to be suprised. I am sure no invador would want my suprises.

The millenium wire fencing from Home Depot is a good idea. It looks very uninviting but isn’t really cumbersome. I’ve stopped short of guns with 2 toddlers at home but appreciate the ideas such as wasp spray, solar security lights, tactical flashlights, official-looking biohazard signs.

Lily −13:58 Boiling oil from the ramparts? hehe. I don’ want to be blue!!!!!

Melanie @ 12:12

I whole heartedly agree! You’ll recall the “schools as food banks” thread I started. Preventing community desperation is the best home security tip there is. My zone of responsibility is to protect my family first but it doesn’t end at my property line. I believe we are all responsible to protect our communities too. And, as you point out, by protecting my community I am also protecting my family.

In a virtual sense, one of the communities that we have joined is fluwikie. I would hope that most here not only are trying to gain information for their own use but also feel a responsibility to share their knowledge and ideas for the benefit of the fluwikie community. The same camaraderie which motivates us to want to help the citizens of this virtual community should, at the same time, be motivating us to help the citizens in our real world communities. The knowledge and ideas here have practical value to your friends and neighbors that can make a real difference to them.

Because frankly, if all we are doing here is preparing the perfect bunker, that is really pathetic IMHO. Like it or not, unless you’re Ted Kaczynski, you are a part of a community. You are dependent upon others. And they are depending on you. Even if you SIP if TSHTF, you will still be interdependent upon your community. Maybe you will have all of the food, ammo, and power you need—you will still be dependent upon the morality and civility of those around you. If circumstances become so desparate that all morality and civility is lost (I’m talking Mad Max here), then God help you. Because you won’t be able to reload fast enough. Or maybe they’ll just burn you out. Without a functioning society, there will be no vaccine, no end to the horror, no civilization, no tomorrow and no point.

I’m not saying that isolation and SIP in the midst of a H2H high percentage CFR pandemic would be inappropriate—it would be the only sane course. And protecting your home and loved ones is already an unfortunate reality and will most probably be of greater concern in that situation—hence this thread.

The point is, you can’t be truly prepared in isolation. If you really want to be safe, put the same energy into preparing your community as you put into SIP & home defense.

Oh beleive me, it crossed my mind. Is it really any different than the middle ages and warfare then? Maybe the kids would enjoy reading up on that period. After all I’m going back to the Picts and the Romans for my ideas.

Grrr. I hate typos! “wholeheartedly”! Duh. And in the first line too!

As someone whose living is dependent upon my ability to be clear and compelling in writing, sometimes things like that just make me want to scream. I agonize over typos. Really. Drives me absolutely nuts.

Maybe I need help.

I’ve got my sword. No really…. I used to fight live steel in ren fairs. Still I would rather my neighbors be freindly. I have talked to some of the neighbors about BF, but I have a few not so nice neighbors. We concider anyone within 10 miles a neighbor around here. Most peoples properties are at least 40 acres.

Yes,every few years I go up to Fort Tryon park to the Cloisters museam, and soak up the atmosphere of the Faire.I would recommend it to anyone in the NYC area with children. Towards the end of September usually if I recall. I like to take someone who hasn’t seen it.

Reveal your plans and provisionings to one, and you reveal to all. You might as well publish it in the newspaper.

The phrases I am thinking of are “out on a limb” and “martyred for the cause”.

My mind was changed on the subject of talking to my neighbors on this site. At first I thought it was a bad idea. but two of my neighbors who have access to water have said we would work together if it got bad. One is a Sheriff and the other a postal carrier. Both have kids and are good men. The only other I talked to is a banker w/ kids and I don’t view him as any possible threat, but I don’t think he thinks anything is going to happen.

jon c: Once you have “crossed that line” such as you have done, you need to immediately work up a mutual defense pact. I have one set of neighbors nearby. I plan to draw them in once things get started. I am provisioning for two families. It is an expensive strategy, but it gives me another layer of defense. In this manner I stay below the radar, yet I can later strike a deal for mutual protection and aid. “ Walk-abouts” will be used for communication.

Lilly in the Middle Ages - They had much the same problem as we are facing. They knew well back then about stockpiling food, plus defending against plunderers. They figured out the best defense was a tall stone keep, with your provisions, to retreat into for the duration of an attack. (put a well in the bottom) Check your local building ordinances regarding such a structure in your backyard! LOL

We( the sheriff and the postal worker ) disscussed mutual defence. They both also have lots of livestock to protect. We disscussed that working together would be in all of our best interest.

Sam’s club and Dollar store were a bust so I picked up some door/window alarms on ebay. Keep the REASONABLE ideas coming :)

Define reasonable. Just kidding. (I was thinking of BB’s tank plans) hehe

A poor man’s tank.

Jeez it didn’t know it would post the picture. Sorry. Cloud(

Cloud9 – at 20:39 --- Now THAT would prob’ly do a lot less damage to my driveway than the tracks of an M1A1!! And, there’s room for the whole family!!! LOL!!

Cloud9, how did you post the pic? There was a pic I needed to post a while ago but couldn’t figure it out.

I went to images, typed in buffel and found the link. I copied the link to the post. I thought the post would show the link. I had no idea it would post the picture. Sorry, Cloud9

Cloud9, hey it didn’t do the sidescroll thing- way to go!

Re building a tank: I recall a while back a man with a grudge against several people in his town welded steel plates around the cab of his tractor to form a bullet-proof turret, complete with vision slits and gun ports. He then fired it up, went chugging down the road, and drove THROUGH the houses and buildings of the people he didn’t like. Police opened fire, but he’d built so well their heaviest rounds just bounced off, while he was able to return fire as he wished. Finally the tractor ran out of gas and he shot himself rather than be captured; but it was an interesting demonstration of what you could do with materials at hand.

Shades of Mr. T on the A-Team! Guy probably could have become famous for his construction achievement if he hadn’t gone psycho-terminator with it.

FW,

That’s an anomoly. Most people aren’t going to do that, most aren’t that crazy and this is crazy behavior.

I don’t know whether I should laugh or not at that, but for some reason I really did. LOL but that is definitely psycho behaviour. what a weird story.

FW – at 23:02 --- There was also a guy in L.A. several years ago that actually bought an old WWII Sherman tank then went on a rampage down several city streets, crushing cars and a couple of very large RVs. What stopped him? The barriers down the middle of the freeway! The treads got caught up on top of the Jersey barriers and got stuck! The CHP was NOT happy with him at all…and Melanie’s right—it is crazy!

Marauders who come to someone’s home will only be there for a short time. They are probably looking for food or things to trade. It seems to me that if you have a family and no way out of town the best thing to do is to hide. Leave something out for looters to take and get the family in a safe place. Safe places are places that you make or places that are not easily found. In these places there will obviously be the necessary supplies for a few days stay and there will be two ways in and out. Some safe places may need a pick and shovel to create a second way out.

I doubt that anyone would do it now but when the time comes, it would not be too difficult to knock out part of a basement wall and replace it with a steel door. When looting begins I would guess that most people will have a few days notice and will have time to dig out a basement room if needed. In addition to a steel door, and some sort of bracing you would need some lumber (to support the earth), a hammer and nails, and probably some way to make a ventilation shaft. All of theses things are relatively common and merely need to be kept in or around the house.

If you decide to “defend” your property then the safe room should be available for children and those who would be more or less defenseless.

On the Public Unrest Thread (March 6th) at 22:55 I presented directions for how to make a basement vault for about $600.00.

On the other hand (the one without blisters) consider obtaining a steel door for your basement and reinforcing the frame. That alone will keep most people out of the basement area. The trick is to survive.

JonC My apologies. Looking back on my post way earlier, it didn’t sound very polite. I am sorry. I am always hesitant to begin a new thread myself so I probably shouldn’t criticize any others. I agree with you wholeheartedly that this is a good topic that may be helpful to many, including myself; but like another poster mentioned above too, it looks so much like “invitation” in the title that it throws me every time :) And, no worries, I do misspell quite often myself, no one’s perfect :)

Someone had an idea about using fish hooks on their trip wire. I guess with cans as well and some barbed wire you could hear the casual intruder and take your desired action, which you have prepared for, I hope. Great site and thread and ideas. Some of all your ideas have reinforced my preps from vaccinations and meds, to weapons and their use, to food and water, to solar power and fuel, to cooking and lighting. I guess my view is that if we have a pandemic there will be some trouble. Thanks folks, go easy on each other.

Y’all (excuse my Southern) who are putting up dangerous fences, keep in mind that the situaion may exist where you WANT someone to come into your house — the paramedics! If you tuck yourself in with barbed wire or fish hooks early on & get sick early on before things fall apart, your help might face injury trying to get to you & you may be too sick to take it down so they can come in.

Just a thought.

JoeW – at 00:59 – Professor, I must respectfully disagree with your premise that during a pandemic, “Marauders who come to someone’s home will only be there for a short time. They are probably looking for food or things to trade” and that we should “hide” if we can’t get out of town.

Under normal circumstances I agree that the “typical” burglar will unlawfully enter an unoccupied private home, go to the bedroom, since generally that is where most valuables are found, grab a pillow case from the bed – load it up with whatever he can find and get out as quickly as he can. This burglary may only take a few minutes.

In my view, during a pandemic, assuming most essential services are non-existent or severely curtailed, the aforementioned “typical burglar” (or as you describe “marauder”) scenario is out the window. Our fellow Wikians are visiting this site to learn and to exchange ideas. I’d be willing to bet that many people visiting these pages have gained enough knowledge about “Preventing Home Invasion” that they’ll not hide and allow a marauder(s) to take from them what they’ve worked so hard to accumulate. Those of us with the experience to teach through practical knowledge describe on this thread various ways to protect life and property. Preventive measures and preparation are not “hiding” or letting marauders into one’s home to take from us because, WE HAVE A PLAN. There are some wonderful ideas both violent and non-violent described above that if nothing else are confidence builders. centella – at 23:07, had a terrific suggestion by using amplified sound. Noise works! No burglarizing marauder is going to stick around (in most cases) when a siren, recorded dog bark, sounds of numerous occupants, fireworks or loud music is waking up the dead. Notice I mentioned fireworks…shooting a weapon in the air is extremely unsafe. Using deadly physical force to protect your life or that of another, (for those that are equipped), is a last resort.

In closing Joe…hiding and giving up may be for some and that’s OK, but I truly believe that the prepared will not allow these dirtbags into their home when the time comes…..they’ll have a plan to “Prevent Home Invasion.” Those that do not have a plan and are unprepared are the only one’s that can be described as defenseless.

Sorry - the post at 0835 is mine - I’m on a different computer.

To add the mmmelody’s post -

Someone said earlier, “I would rather give up my preps and be alive then die defending them.” To me, the whole reason I am making preps is to keep my family alive. In essence, if I lose my preps, I lose the ability to sustain life.

Everyone should prepare to the level they feel comfortable with. If I had a basement I would probably build a “safe room” to house my family and preps. Since I don’t, I have to try and make my entire house as safe as possible (ie Alarms, Barricades, Sirens, and weapons as a last resort).

What makes everyone think these “marauders” will leave after they find what they want. If you have a heavily prepped home and they have no way to haul everything away. They may just stay and become “squatters”. Once they get in you will never get them out. The trick is to keep them out or scare them so badly they will not come back again. You may be able to do it with a show of force and or a show of presence but you can’t let them in or the game is over. Once they get your preps they surely will not be sharing with you if you are still alive. Let’s all pray it doesn’t come to this. Our motto around here is “Prep and Fortify”.

One additional suggestion to deal with someone invading your home (to steal or to stay). Make sure you have things “hidden” away in alot of different areas. Things that would be really difficult for anyone else to find i.e. in suitcases up in the attic and such. In this way, should someone steal or move in and live off of your preps, you have a secret stash. Might also be a good idea to do the same with any sort of weapons (mace, hornet spray, guns, stunguns, etc). Don’t have them all in one place - distribute throughout the house and hide in places that would be very difficult to find. Make sure the entire family knows where these items are.

I also plan on packing full all of the trunks of my cars if TSHTF with items that would not be ruined due to heat or cold. In this way, if my family needed to “escape” quickly, we would have some provisions.

My sons live about a mile from me. I am now fully prepping their home too in the event that my home (which now is fully prepped for at least 4 months) is vandalized.

Think in terms of “hide and seek”.

I’ve had to deal with violence to the extreme at times in my lifetime and feel that I am; emotionally, physically and materially prepared for most situations. Scooba - prepare, plan and survive….it’s that simple. I am confident that everyone, no matter income, age or physical condition can protect themselves with a viable, practiced plan.

There are several options to protect life and limb, depending upon one’s willingness and ability. If you are required to live in or near densely populated areas and are living alone with your family then one plan should be to insure that those you love can survive after you are gone. No single defense mechanism is going to work and I am of the opinion that no individual family can withstand an onslaught by a few men with a determination to break into a house. One of the classic methods is to hold a knife to one of your children’s throats and make X demand.

I doubt that children can be kept indoors for long periods of time. Where will they be while you are playing tape recordings and stringing wire? If there are serious riots outside of the downtown areas the only option will be to survive the initial predators and then get out of town.

Our plans are substantially different from most people’s plans posted here as suggestions. We take all this very seriously. In my opinion, the preferred method is to band together in a house with 20+ people in the woods. Not everyone is able or willing to do that and so other ways of surviving must be considered.

Mother of Five-1:38 It’s O.K. It was a big spelling mistake. As to the content. I think the popularity of this thread speaks for itself as to it’s need. I wish there was no need, but I have lived in a country under martial law.

I’m-workin’-on-it – at 08:05

“the situation may exist where you WANT someone to come into your house”

If this is the case, maybe you are all sick and incapacitated you may have to take a gamble and open up an entrance. However if it’s that bad, I doubt rescue crews will be out randomly or systematically searching houses for those in need.

OR, you may need to bail out quickly yourself; a fire, or fill in the blank. Plan one exit (the most defensible one & the one with the shortest most defensible exit route) where you can quickly remove the defensive layers. NEVER use this exit otherwise, for your routine coming & going -even if only into your yard - have another exit to use. You want your emergency exit to remain as unknown as possible. For instance, we have one large bedroom in the basement; it has one of these egress windows down in a “well”. That opens into our back yard and is surrounded with evergreen type shrubs, our whole back yard has a 6’ privacy fence, this happens to be the one spot with the best concealment. I have it all ready to cover in a manner so that it just looks like one of the many other raised flower beds around the yard & house. Also, have your defenses in layers, so to speak. If civil unrest is at a minimum one level of defense, additional layers added on if things start getting worse. The same goes for active resistance - and this is where you must be observant and use some judgment - at first use non-lethal force, perhaps some sort of spray or light em up with a laser sight, if they persist, use that warning shot (into a tree or something that will stop the bullet), then if they keep charging take em out. Keep in mind this depends almost completely on you being in a highly defensible position and/or them not being able to get easily and quickly to you, and your “take” on their appearance – are they a mom & dad & a few kids or some guys in a pickup truck piled with loot, suckin on beers and shooting randomly while hootin & hollerin. One other possibility. Old castle construction had an Outer Ward, a passage/room between the inner and outer gates where attackers would have to pass through if the breached the outer gate. That area was lined in the walls and ceiling with “murder holes” through which to attack the invaders. Conceivably you could have something of the same in your home. You main way of exit & entry would be this way with all other entrances heavily reinforced. If they do break in they will in essence be trapped in this passage while battering down the inner door. You would then have built a means to administer non-lethal force; pepper spray grenade, heck have a skunk in a cage and release it in there with them LOL.

Bottom line: in both active and passive measure try to use an appropriate level of defense. Don’t launch a ‘Beehive’ over your neighborhood unless the country begins to look like that Jean-Claude Van Damme movie Cyborg. (Beehive was a specialized bomb used in Vietnam, a type of mortar shell filled with steel needles, it went off overhead shooting those needles over an area the size of a football field literally shredding everything in that area) For those who have studied the martial arts there is an oft used “creed”, “Try the utmost to avoid conflict, if conflict cannot be avoided, then cause pain before you injure, injure before you maim, maim you before you kill.”

JoeW – at 10:43 - I repeat, Prevent Home Invasion requires preparation and planning. The beauty of the FW is the ability to discuss, disagree and have a plan with survival for all at the top of the list. It’s a wonderful thing for all of us to learn so much from each other and to respect individual opinions and ideas….as I do for yours Joe ;-)

I agree mmmelody47. We share our own plans and plans that others might find useful. Someone pointed out, on another thread, that they live in the city in an apartment and that much of what we discuss does not apply to them. That is where I developed the idea for a bunker in the basement of an apartment building, in a community center or anywhere else that one could find. City communities ae only going to survive if they band together and preparations should be made now to have the appropriate people in place to protect city areas. Neighborhood watch type of approaches will be the order of the day.

EOD “Try the utmost to avoid conflict, if conflict cannot be avoided, then cause pain before you injure, injure before you maim, maim you before you kill.” This credo is ok in nonleathal situations but if you actually fear for your life, “ do not point a weapon at anyone unless you are willing to fire it and do not fire unless you shoot to kill “ The legs are difficult targets in the best of circumstances. If you must shoot to wound, aim for the pelvis. With seconds to decide on danger to self or family I have trained to body shoot. We are talking here about mortal danger. If you cannot do this IMO you are better off not having a firearm around. Kelly

Shooting to wound is a nobel idea, but just hitting a target at all in a high stress situation can be difficult even with a lot of training, even more difficult if the target is shooting back. Ther was a shootout at less than ten feet with a Sheriffs officer and a newly released convict. over 30 rounds were expended with no hits. The better trained officer did manage to put a couple of holes in the felons jacket, but without hitting the felon.

Np1, I think you made a very important point. Also, if you decide to use a firearm,or any other weapon for that matter, when it comes time to defend yourself don’t hesitate. This will just give the agressor an opportunity to disarm you and maybe use your own weapon against you. Get any training you might need and be ready to act.

I hope my comments earlier in this thread were not misconstrued. This is an important thing to discuss and the thread is a good idea jon c.

Thank you MaMa, I respect your opinions always. Jon

Glancing through these postings gave me an escellent idea. First I don’t think it will happen in my neck of the woods, but as nothing in life is certain but death and taxes I have a contigency plan. Door is breached, retreat to basement. One can always keep flashlights, taser gun in two locations. Grab my winchester ,bolt basement door. If the person is a marauder and one can ask for specs if they are rattling the doorknob tell them to take what is in the kitchen pantry, and welcome to it. Then if they have taken the preps that are now out of date, (sorry food pantry, decoy food) but want to parlay or investigate the basement, then and only then react with violence. My attitude was anyone who invades is fair game, but, perhaps if they are just normal people, desperate, but not armed and dangerous thugs they will be satisfied with this. If they are not, well that is another ball game, and their lives are forfeit.This satisfies all requirements of the law.This should satisfy anyone who is a pacifist.One has been humane, but one need not be a victim.

Lily at 13:30

Your plan is a good one and I agree that it is certainly lawful. But it won’t satisfy a true pacifist. Although there are many “flavors” of pacifism, those advocating nonresistance would not respond with violence in any circumstance, even self-defense or the defense of an innocent.

I was once a pacifist (now I’m not). My “flavor” of pacifism was rooted in the Christian Anabaptist tradition of 16th century radical reformers. Gandhi was a pacifist of a different tradition.

Pacifists are thoughtful and principled people. I’m sure that some here are pacifists. That’s why it is great that we have also provided non-violent alternatives in this thread.

Do pacifists meekly bow their heads, an retreat into a snow filled landscape to starve? Do pacifists have any gumption at all? I think that it isn’t saintly behavior to submit to a sadistic thug, or a psychopathic marauder.O.K. Open your hearts, and say here, take everything I have, its all yours, including my wife, my daughter to do with as you will.(Of course the violent would say. “Of course we won’t harm you, or your wife, or your daughter, of course we recognize your nobility of spirit. We’ll pass you by/” I know a pacisifist does not want to murder another even in self defense. What would a pacifist do. Submit?I’m not being sarcastic, just am curious. Would they sit calmly and watch it all unfold, without defense of any kind? What would a pacifist do if the scenario was. Intrusion, burglury, rapine and general mayhem?

I knew a pacifist who was the bravest man I have ever known

I always thought of myself as pacifistic in nature, but I have never submitted to anothers sadism, of any sort.I am not being difficult here, I am curious, what is allowable?

He was willing to give up everything…I mean everything… to not harm another human being. I watched him really live this beleif and put up with some really bad things to live as a pacifist. I could never have done it. I am sorry to say some people took advantage of him.

Np1 – at 11:33

I agree completely.

In most all situations IF I have to draw my weapon I’m going for a headshot, no hesitation. At that point I have already run through the ““Try the utmost to avoid conflict, if conflict cannot be avoided, then cause pain before you injure, injure before you maim, maim you before you kill.”, and probably have made that assessment quite quickly. I don’t care where you are (in the US), the force used must be appropriate to the danger presented or you are going to prison regardless of who your lawyer is. Judgment must always be used and the standard is what the legal system calls “reasonable”.

EOD, you must have spent a lot of time on the range.

It is better to wound and leave him for others to cart away. IF you are able to do that. The Irish kneecap people so they can tell who their friends are — not.

Wood or aluminum bat? Is aluminum too light?

Then you really need a lot of duct tape to shut him up as he howls, and duct tape to get his hands and arms bound. Then how do you frog march him out of your digs, when he is writhing around. Gee more problems sto solve. Who will get him out of your home, I can guarentee you’ll be stuck with the creep for daya.

Just tie him to the back of your tank and drop him off somewhere….

Hi Lily,

I understand you questions and am sure that you are asking in good faith.

Given that I’ve been on both sides of that coin, I’ll be happy to share some of my thoughts.

But right now I gotta go to my son’s birthday party. He’s getting a new bike and it’s in my car so can’t be late. I’ll be back later tonight.

Also, I don’t want to hijack this thread with a pacifism discussion so if anyone feels strongly either way, let me know. I can always start a new thread.

Thanks.

Peace out.

Cloud9 – at 17:27

I have assisted in the construction of several combat type ranges and currently, in my spare time, help run one. It also helps that I have a second job that pays for my ammo. <grins>

I am “comfortable” with my ability but long for & strive for improvement.

I was told that post-Katrina a corpse (with obvious bullet wounds) draped in the entrance of a store was sufficient deterrent to prevent further looting.

Prior to pandemic planning (and passage of Castle Doctrine law here), my plan for my wife to use in my absense was to retreat behind the locked door of the bedroom where she was to pick up the semi-automatic rifle with a 30-round magazine loaded with full metal jacket rounds. Similar to EOD’s ‘castle entrance’ scenario, if someone was trying to come through that interior door she was to make swiss cheese of the door and nearby sheetrock walls until all was quiet.

I’m a great fan of tactical flashlights such as the Surefire brand light. In darkness you can not only identify your target (very important), but blind and confuse him as well.

Those who survive the kinds of conflicts to which this thread refers are the ones who write the history. You get to tell the authorities “what happened.” That is why the winners of a major conflict are called “revolutionaries”. The ones who don’t? They’re called rebels. Reminds me of a line from one of Warren Zevon’s songs, “Send lawyers guns and money. TSHHTF.”

Though I continue to beleive in the civility of my neighbors, and continue to hope it won’t happen, I still think I should be open to all options if I am mistaken in this hope. I certainly will get a Surefire brand light, and a baseball bat, and take some target practice. I never thought would ever be needed. I would brew up one wicked batch of old stale urine, but if I’m stuck with some creep inside perhaps it wouldn’t be such a good idea. Of course I could wrap him up in a big plastic sheet like a spider does for a future snack, get the carrier out of the garage and just let him marinate in the garage well wrapped and snug,even if drenched, until someone came to pick him up. I wouldn’t allow such scum to remain anywhere near me. I don’t know the law here. But if I’m cold inside, the garage wouldn’t be much different in temperature. I am interested in what a pacifist would do, how much he would tolerate. If the sub-human in the garage, and I would regard them as sub-human wrapped up securely had a henchman, and they usually travel in pairs was still outside waiting, what then. Oh as a writer, I often play out scenarios in my head, I’m sure I could find something , like shooting out his tires, and bashing in his windsheild, but then he would be there. So Ide have to do something drastic like tossing a match to a bit of gas. See how uncivilized we all can get in an imaginary scenario. Don’t get a woman really riled up. So much for my pacifistic nature. Why I’m angry already, but I’ll calm down quickly. To someone of that caliber, I am merely prey,to someone of my calibre, they would have to suffer the consequences of getting me riled up,by invading my sanctuary,and threatening my safety and life.God help the man who threatened a woman with children to protect.

Sweet, EOD. I am not that good of a shot.

on reflection I wouldn’t waste ammo or trash the car. Let the henchman get away. Of course he would try to terrorize someone else. And I’m still stuck with that creep in the garage. I guess a good cry would be in order.

We have plenty of alternatives at our disposal, many of them discussed here. But my plan of first choice is still to deploy the very official looking “Bird Flu Quarantine” signs that I have printed on day-glo orange cardstock and laminated in plastic. I am also going to print up orange “seals” for the doors and windows. I hope this will be sufficient. If not — oh well — Plan B.

Lily – at 19:59

All need to be ready for that cry or puking or not being able to calm down for many long minutes or hours - and it may not surface right away. There are alot more cops and solders out there that have not had so shoot/kill anyone than have, and vastly more citizens. Decent folks should not have to do such things but unfortunately the time may come when they must.

If you have a strong neighborhood, maybe make-up some “THis neighborhood under watch” signs. Get your neighgbors to post signs in front yards and at the top of all streets. Vigilantes may look for an easier neighborhood.

Five will get you ten that is not the Lily I know writing this trash - - beware of trolls.

Found something interesting while looking for the Kelly Kettle. Yellow Jacket Bear Repellent Electric Fence. portable, powered by 4 D-cells, charges 10 miles (?!) of fence, produces 8000 volts. www.waterstrider.com [click on bear repellent in the list on the right] There were testimonials and a video of bears retreating from the fence, but I’d like to hear Eccles’ opinion of this device.

or http://tinyurl.com/lg64n

cost is $175

Where do I start? Lily – you are a woman who deserves a level of respect difficult to express here. I hope that you noted my apology about half way up this thread. Madam….I tip my hat to you with utmost respect.

EOD – I have in my home a 36” Garland with all kinds of professional cookware and implements that may give the appearance that I know as much as you – a trained culinary Chef and administrator – but I’m not! I love to cook and frankly do an adequate job of fooling a lot of family and friends that I’m better than I actually am. Cooking is really easy until you see and actually experience a professional on “the line” as yourself. The passion for cooking that is required in order to be truly successful escapes this simple cooking charlatan. You sir, carry the title of Chef. You are a master of the kitchen.

I wish to be gentle, non-inflammatory, non-insulting and more importantly….respectful. You, sir are well intentioned but mistaken on a couple of levels

Beehive rounds are not bombs or mortar rounds – they’re projectiles used primarily by the main gun of tanks during the Vietnam era. These rounds were an effective deterrent during “human wave” attacks then and consisted of hundreds of “mini-darts” shot out of a canister, much like a shotgun with bird shot with incredibly devastating results. Commonly, this beehive round was limited to the 105MM howitzer/tank cannon. The M-48-A3 tank which was the tank of primary use during that era utilized a 90MM main gun which lacked the specific capability of the beehive round outlined herein. As I recall, the Marines most often used an M-60-A1 tank (105MM main gun) that had the capacity of firing that anti-personnel round throughout that miserable, stinking war.

You have many excellent points EOD, but some clear inaccuracies that compel me to respond and offer my opinion….read, my opinion. HEAD SHOTS sound good, but during a combat confrontation are categorically impractical. Combat arms, except sniper instruction, drill for “center of mass” shooting. Not aiming….but, pointing one’s weapon in the direction of its intended target. Pointing, hundreds and thousands of times in order to develop a second nature of proficiency. Even though many that are unfortunate enough to experience combat will miss “center of mass” shots, or anything close to it with the very best of training….head shots are practiced while at the range….shooting at paper. Certainly, there are exceptions (SWAT, etc.)…but they are not the rule.

Combat sucks, shooting another person sucks, talking about it sucks….lets hope and pray that none of us is faced with the decision that may result in the ultimate demise of another human being. But, as discussed on this thread and elsewhere, “plan for the worst and hope for the best.”

I think General Douglas MacArthur said it best -

“I know war as few other men now living know it, and nothing to me is more revolting. I have long advocated its complete abolition, as its very destructiveness on both friend and foe has rendered it useless as a method of settling international disputes.”

mmmelody47 – at 23:01

“Beehive rounds are not bombs or mortar rounds – they’re projectiles used primarily by the main gun of tanks during the Vietnam era.”

I’m sure you are correct on that. It’s been a long time and being in the Air Force then I did not have intimate knowledge of those weapons, I just heard of them. I had three other family members (cousins) in Viet Nam, two of us in the Air Force myself & an older cousin Bob, fighter pilot, shot down & POW for 6 1/2 years. Lynn was in the Marines and Randy was a sniper with the Rangers - all of us made it home too!

“HEAD SHOTS sound good, but during a combat confrontation are categorically impractical. Combat arms, except sniper instruction, drill for “center of mass” shooting.”

I guess we’ll have to disagree on that one - somewhat anyways :) I shoot with a military instructor who just got back from 15 months in Iraq training Iraqi military and police; you shoot what you train to shoot. But yes there is always an exception. The “typical” civilian shoot out, statistics show, takes about 5 seconds, occurs at about 5 feet, with…its either 2 or 3 rounds shot. Under those conditions you have no time to aim, you just point and shoot. Under these conditions, behind cover, guarding my home, I do not intend to let it get that far, or close, depending how you look at it; I’ll try to end it before it gets to an arm’s length situation.

To the other stuff…Chef yes, but by no means a Master. I have a couple friends who are Certified Master Chefs and I can not hold a candle to them. The American Culinary Federation started the Certified Master Chef program in 1981, since that time, there have only been about 140 people in the whole country that have achieved that title. Right now in the 50 States there are only 62 Certified Master Chefs, and 14 Certified Master Pastry Chefs. Thank you for the compliment, but I will never earn that honor.

Can I ask your background? You too seem knowledgeable in this.

Haven’t heard a groundswell on the pacifism issue one way or another so I’ll keep it short (relatively speaking).

Lily @ 15:18--“Do pacifists meekly bow their heads, an retreat into a snow filled landscape to starve? Do pacifists have any gumption at all? I think that it isn’t saintly behavior to submit to a sadistic thug, or a psychopathic marauder.O.K. Open your hearts, and say here, take everything I have, its all yours, including my wife, my daughter to do with as you will.”

Most non-pacifists struggle to get their minds around how someone could voluntarily choose not to defend oneself and particularly one’s family from a violent attack. What must be understood is that a pacifists chooses not to resist violence because of a deeply held belief system. Thus, while it may appear insane for a pacifist to refuse to resist a violent attack, it is absolutely sane within the context of their belief system.

Consider the soldier who throws himself onto a life grenade to save his brothers in arms. Without context, this act appears to be crazy. What must be understood is that the soldier’s belief system compels him to choose the lesser of two evils—sacrifice of himself rather than the injury and potential death of his brother soldiers. When one understands the bonds that are formed between soldiers, the sacrifices that they routinely make for one another, and the ethics of the battlefield, it is a perfectly rational and exceptionally heroic act.

There are many varieties and degrees of pacifism so it is difficult to generalize as to their motives. As I mentioned, my pacifism was rooted in the Christian tradition and the Anabaptist movement which arose during the reformation. Today’s Mennonites and Amish are direct descendants of the Anabaptists and pacifism is prevalent in these denominations. At the time I was a pacifist, I was neither Mennonite nor Amish (although ironically, after I moved away from pacifism, I did become a member of a Mennonite Brethren church).

This excerpt from the Wikipedia entry on Nonresistance concisely summarizes the theological foundation of Christian pacifism—

. . . .

“Christian nonresistance is based on a reading of the first half of Matthew 5:39, part of the Sermon on the Mount, in which Jesus says: “But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also”. Members of denominations such as those from Anabaptist backgrounds, such as the Amish, have interpreted this verse to mean Christians should do nothing to resist an evil person or enemy, other than to return good to those that hate them. This theology sees that if punishment is to be carried out, it is to be done by God, not humans. Nonresistance Christians note the sacrificial love of Jesus showed in his crucifixion, rather than returning evil for evil.”

. . . .

There is actually quite a bit of scripture which supports a pacifist intepretation of Christianity. For instance, consider Paul’s words in Romans 12:

. . . .

17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”says the Lord. 20 On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”

. . . .

Ultimately, I’ve moved away from a pacifistic viewpoint. The rationale for that decision is a discussion for another day.

If you’re interested in doing further reading about this topic, I suggest you check out these links:

Wikipedia Nonresistance: http://tinyurl.com/mlzoh

Romans 12: http://tinyurl.com/pre3y

The Principle of Nonresistance, by John Horsch: http://tinyurl.com/gpmsb

EOD – at 23:47 - good morning! Rather than bore the readers with my background here, if you wish please review my profile and you’ll find my email address.

I enjoyed the discussion.

Yes indeed it was Lily writing that trash. I regard myself as a reasonable person, but driving home after writing that I thought now, Well its pouring buckets in that scenario, I am home, perhaps in my nitegown, in the kitchen, an intruder is there very quietly ransacking the pantry. Is it a usually decent man trying to feed his family, do I retreat silently and lock off the basement or my bedroom( I must install bolts) or am I appalled and hit him on the head with an iron frying pan. Who knows what any of would do. There is blood on his head, do I call 911 is that still operational, or do I wrap his blood soaked head in a towel, and drag him out to the back stairs, kick him down the stairs, and my god he slides down the mud soaked hillside inside my quiet stream, that is now a raging torrent. Who knows what anyone is capable of under duress.If there is a breakdown of society, and I don’t really beleive it will get to that point, why I am capable of not only defending myself, but also possibly acting out some of the scenarios that I am capable of imagining and that I do put down on paper.Yes I do write some pretty sensational melodrama, I have lived out some pretty strange scenarios, none where I harmed anyone, except in a mexican standoff or verbally. We are still in a society that is functioning, perhaps dysfunctionally, but orderly enough, and it can get hairy.All through history these violent times errupt. Have any of you seen Cold Mountain. A widow alone with her child, shares her bed with the hero who has deserted. In the morning a Yankee is ready to steal what little she has. The hero stops him and the man pleads for his life. The hero is magnanimus, he feels pity, but the widow knows what she is facing and she shoots him down. We aren’t in that situation yet, thank god. I hope the fabric of society here doesn’t break down, but it has in Dafur, it did in Sarejevo.Even writing that little bit made me feel both angry and nauseated, but worse will happen and we better know ourselves intimately, not as we want to be, but as we may have to be.

Good comments Lily. Just because we we live may in “civilized” countries does not mean it cannot happen here. The hills are full of graves from all times & all peoples of those who thought it won’t/can’t happen here, it can’t happen in our enlightened society. Hog wash! It has, it can, and it will again.

Cold mountain was a great movie. We bought it. On a bright note. I have made an alliance with those two neighbors I wrote about earlier. They are both prepping like crazy now and I have given them this website. I told them to check out some of your prepping lists. The really great thing is that water was our biggest worry. Problem solved. between the two they have over 6,000 gallons of storage and water tank on a trailer to move some to me. We are all roughly five miles apart in a triangle but can see each other. One being a sheriffs deputy won’t hurt a bit. Whoo-hooo!!! Jon

Lily – at 10:30 - you must be related to Louisa May Alcott ;-) Your comments above indicate something very important….the ideas expressed here and elsewhere on the FW whether you agree or not, are provoking thoughtful discussion. I’d call that a success.

jon c

You guys may want to look into getting a set of good 2-way radios. Test them out and make sure they work well covering that distance between your homes.

EOD- That’s a great idea!!! We have a great line of sight. If we had to we could use 12v CBs as we are all on solar/ wind power.

mmelogy47. I often drive to the library after breakfast, and think as I drive, will I log in today or not. Why do I log in, why do I post. Certainly I never was a carbon copy, certainly I never jump in to say yes when I think no. I guess I feel my opinion is worth as much as that of someone who gets angry that I even say what I am saying. I am not out to change anyones opinion. I think if I get someone who is a rubber stamp to think for themselves then I’ve been effective. Some people may disagree and squabble, I prefer to disagree and debate an issue with civility if possible. I think this forum which I refer to as Liberty Hall, has allowed us all our say, within certain parameters which I agree are reasonable.I think we all have a feeling that we are vulnerable, that we may not make it if it goes worse case. Perhaps noone in the future would read this is that happens. But we are history. I don’t try to be errudite, and My typos make me wince. Without glasses I mistype, misspell and in general run amok. But I beleive that is why some people seem to find it interesting. Its authentically me, typos and all. WE are all trying to be honest. Perhaps some have their agendas, eventually we all know them, and ignore what they say. I have no agenda. Most of us are making our way through a unique period of our history, at least I think that is why we are here. We take the threat seriously.

Well its that time in the week when I go out to play with the big boys, catch up on T.V… I think Jon has solved a lot of his problems. Good neighbors he trusts, water, 2 way radios and so on.If jon c. has managed, so will many of you.

Have a wonderful time with the boys!!!

jon c—any homes for sale in your neighborhood? Sounds like you have it about as good as anyone could hope for.

Lily—I really appreciate your writing & authenticity. You have a unique ability to craft thought provoking & realistic scenarios. Please continue to share with us. It’s not trash. If you sometimes push the edge of the dramatic envelope, it is only to provoke consideration of important issues. I commend you.

There is occationally land for sale. You can usually pick up 40 acres for less than $100,000 USD.

ooopppss that was me.

Tall in MS

The Surefire flashlights you mentioned in an above post do you recommend the LED or the incandescent?

Scooba---I’d recommend the LED flashlights in all cases….they use a lot less battery juice!

BB- the only problem I have had with LED flashlights ( We use them a lot) is if you need to see any amount of distance they just don’t have the reach. Like when there maybe a coyote in the chicken coop. for around the house they are great and We even have solar powered ones. But for seeing what is going bump in the night I use a 5 D cell maglight. They also make a hell of a wepon.

oopppsss that was me again. duh

The advantage the Surefires (and quality imitations) have over your monster Maglite is easy handling. It can be a trick to juggle a great big flashlight at the same time one is trying to safely and effectively deploy a weapon.

Of course, the size issue works both ways. If my only weapon is my flashlight, I’ll take your monster Maglite every time.

BB and Anonymous

Thanks for the advice. We already have a couple of maglights and you are right they do make quite a weapon.

No chicken coop yet not until we move to the Smoky mountains and get out of this darn flat land. Then we can worry about bears and maybe even a coyote or an elk.

Scooba – at 15:23

For a ‘general flashlight’ you may want LED for the reason mentioned by BB above. For a ‘tactical flashlight’, however, incandescent is the only way to go. It is true that you may only get a thirty minute run-time on the incandescent, but the lumen output is typically a multiple of what LED’s will produce.

A good compact tactical light will commonly produce four times the light output of a typical good two D-cell flashlight (Maglite or similar).

The LED technology has made great strides recently, and some LED lights are being marketed at “tactical”, but my side-by-side comparisons has found them lacking.

Surefire provides a comparison chart here: http://tinyurl.com/gccjb

A couple of friends complained that my pocket sized Surefire with 65 lumen output not only temporarily blinded them, but gave them a nasty little headache.

Our military is currently using a lot of the Surefire lights. You’ll see them hanging off of all sorts of small arms in pictures from Iraq. While mounts for many firearms are available, I don’t use one. I don’t want to aim my weapon without first determining if I’m dealing with friend or foe.

Tall in MS

Thanks so much. You guys (and gals) are just great about sharing information.

PH

I’m really interested in your thought process in moving away from a strictly pacifist approach, because that’s me too though I still feel more unsettled with my position than I’d like. Both my parents were Church of the Bretheren pacifists, and, to second what Jon C posted regarding at least one pacifist earlier in this thread, my experience of them was that at the heart of their choice for pacifism was incredible courage, (demonstrated successfully against armed aversaries in WWII) and faith.

The writings of Gandhi were also always near at hand as I grew up and his philosophy and life rung true to me through my formative years.

And yet the idea of being willing to potentially sacrifice my wife and child when I might actively defend them is more than I can accept at this time. And so I am prepared to take the same stepped approach also discussed earlier in this thread.

Again, I’d be very much interested in how you came to the views you have now, if you’re willing to share that information, here, or on another thread.

In any event, thanks to all for your willingness to be so honest and thoughtful/thought provoking - each helping all.

I worked for a lawyer for several years (life before kids) and he once told me that if someone breaks into your home, shoot to kill. He says that way it is only your word, which would be self-defense, and a prosecuting attorney would have a more difficult time convicting you, of course, without the testimony of the “victim” that was shot.

I need to close this thread because of length. A new thread can be started if necessary.