Forum: Free Speech on This Forum

I have to disagree with closing the ammunition thread. While it does appear to be distasteful to some there was some good information there. While it is the mods “right” to close these down threads that they do not approve of there should be a pretty tight test before such a thing occurs. The thread was active for some time which by definition shows there was significant interest. Another point the mods have made previously made a clear point of not allowing political discussion however shutting down good information because of their political beliefs violates their previous standards. Let’s keep this forum informative and free of politics.

I don’t think it’s a matter of taste. It’s a matter of maintaining the integrity of this site as a source of information. No matter how much interest there may be among the regulars, newcomers to the issue are put off by that sort of discussion. I think too much of that sort of thing reflects poorly on us all, and I strongly support the decision to close those threads. If I had any beef, it would be that they were kept open as long as they were.

In order to make things clear as to where Fluwiki stands I suggest that the Main Page of Fluwiki cover the topic of “Self-defense in a Pandemic” as follows:

“Spray pepper spray and run like Hell”.

(The moderators can not suggest or allow to develop any ideas beyond the above due to the fact that we can not offend the ultrasensitive contingent that might be struck dumb with horror upon seeing anything more violent proposed).

I have had one too many email complaints about gun threads by both regulars and new visitors totally put off by the constant threads. If someone wants to start another forum (or another wiki) somewhere else on the topic, fine by me.

What’s been said has been said. But there’s no free speech here and never has been. There is modified reasonable speech, in accordance with the rules. See The Role of the Moderators and Forum Rules Please Read and Comment. In the Moderators thread, I wrote:

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

Note to all,

All of the mods have a serious committment to the first amendment of the US bill of rights, but we also have a committment to the integrity of this site. All of us have professional and personal committments to the goals of public health and community preparedness and awareness, as well. We are rightly suspicious, then, of anything which smacks of survivalism. We firmly believe that we will all get through any public health challenge working cooperatively better than we can as armed camps. We think that neighborhood watches, CERTS, Critical Incident Commands and social networks like granges,faith communities, professional associations and volunteer civic associations have a vital role to play in the resilience of our communities.

Nor, would I add, have we disrespected anyone in those threads. But it’s time to close them.

How about if someone who has an interest in self defense starts a free bbs (there are many places) and then FluWiki can refer to this bbs as the place where these topics are discussed in depth. Here is one place where a free, professional style forum could be started http://tinyurl.com/jk5p3. I nominate Medical Maven for lots of reason. Nice aspect of the URL referred to is that you can have people log in or not as the mod determines

By chance, it would appear that closing the ammo thread gave ME the last word. O__o

shall we take that as definative? ^__^

FW

FW – at 12:48

Absolutely! You had the last word.

Look guys, that was not my favorite thread either, but nobody was forced to open it up. It is just sort of laughable. I was chuckling the whole time as I read your reasons for closing the thread.

Here is my prediction. If the Fluwiki stays on line during a possible high CFR pandemic, there will be a clamor to reinstitute that thread. And it won’t be for academic purposes.

I really thought you guys were less wishy-washy and ideological than this little display indicates.

But like I said in another recent comment I don’t let the eccentricities of my friends end the friendship. : )

This is the last that I will say on it. The loss will be for those who don’t have a clue as to how to defend themselves.

While I believe it is hilarious that someone is “put off” about finding out about options for self defense for their family however they are not put off about the possibility of millions of people dying from a horrible death from avian influenza, starvation etc. What about the fact that you allow Niman to publish in the forum when there is not one credible scientist in the world who gives him credit for his theories or lack thereof. Furthermore, there are regulars here that have given information which is demonstrably false (i.e. there has been human quarantines and there has been already H2H). See the pandora’s box you open when you start to edit information selectively. Overall you have great forum here and as you stated you are free to do as you wish however you are making a mistake and I think it is important for someone to point it out. I thank you for your product but cannot approve of this action.

They can go to their local hunting and fishing emporiums, and talk. I saw a placard in Flemington this morning for a hunting and fishing flea market in Sargentsville. I was thinking I should have checked the date, probably Saturday. Today is a March wind day with April-May air. Hunters love to talk. They can get magazines, books, and probably a lot of info online. I am sitting next to some psychic ladies who are booting up Ghost pictures, we had a nice little chat. If your i;nterested in anything at all there is a place that fits your needs. If the mods want to shut down a site that turns newbies off, well they are trying to promote awareness of the bird flu, not weaponry.

I thank you for your opinion, but you weren’t getting the email complaints, and there’s no other topic reasonable people complained about.

Now, I’m uncertain what needs to be said on the topic that hasn’t been said already, but I suspect that if there’s a burning need in future, we’d revisit the subject. In the meantime, you are welcome to search out any of the other bulletin boards that deal with flu. Perhaps there’s an open thread there about guns and ammunition if it interests you.

If this topic was your only interest here, I am sorry. Otherwise, stick around and comment elsewhere.

If the mods want to shut down a site that turns newbies off, well they are trying to promote awareness of the bird flu, not weaponry.

Thank you, Lily. That’s not political correctness, that’s American practicality.

I think the board will be more appealing to international visitors after this. Guns, ammo and violent defence is a perticular American thing. There are many boards actually better suited to discussing this theme for those of you that crave this sort of information. Just do a Google search for “survivalist +gun +defence”. :-)

From my point of view I believe that if TSHTF, then we have to be co-operative to get through the crisis. Surviving, and then finding yourself in the stone-age is not my dream of survival. Discussing how to function in a neighbourhood, the level of co-operation, how to co-operate, or how to hide your stockpile, etc belongs here, but shooting of some unfortunate visitor does not IMHO.

DemFromCT - Has stated that this site is “like a big tent”… We have to remember that it is HER tent, and we are just visitors…

I’m not saying that it’s as simple as “Her way or the highway”, but she and the other admins have spent countless hours supporting this site, I can not say THANK YOU enough.

The knowledge that I garnered here is going to help me (my family) IF thshtf. Personnaly I hate guns, but am in the process of buying one. Not for my neighbors…it’ll be for/if I meet a pack of wild dogs in my back yard as I’m starting up the generator. (I “see” people turning there animals loose… heck they are dumping there cats in droves in Germany and things aren’t bad yet)

DemFromCT has to live with her conscience, and I applaud her to sticking to her guns (all pun intended).

Thanks, except DemFromCT is a he. And yes, if mistakes are made in moderating, they are mine to own up to and live with. ;-)

sorry DUDE !

That’s what happens when you don’t post pictures. ;−0

Dem---in some cirlces of thought, even Gawd is a she! ;-)

Is this a case of the loud minority getting there way again ?

If emails can change the behaviour of a moderator then send emails complaining about this particular threads closure.

Perhaps when he sees there are more people for this thread Dem may understand that it is good not to bend to the minority view.

On the other hand I can understand why Dem and the other mods may have decided that they wanted a little more credibility as the traffic to the sight increases. Melanie has said she doesnt want this sight to be a survivilist site. Are we not talking about survival then ? If not what is this whole thing about if its not about survival ?

On the other hand I fully understand that some people dont like guns. So……no easy answers.

Nevertheless…..banning people from speaking about topics provided nothing illegal or confrontational is being discussed is well….lets just say it doesnt rest easy with me. Theres ebough control on what is deemed acceptable and polite conversation these days. What I liked about the flu wikki and what has kept me coming back and many many others has been the fact that people have been greatly helped in many many different ways because they have been able to ask all sorts of things….firearms included.

So those of you who are unhappy about the state of things….complain in a polite way and put your case to the mods in particular Dem. Hes a good guy/gal and I know he does listen. Melanie too.

Dem…my deepest thanks!

Devil’s Advocate,

It has nothing to do with a “vocal minority” and everything to do with the mission of the site and the rules we’ve already articulated for the forum.

Melanie with respect if thats the case why was action not taken before now ?

European, that is why you guys needed us in WW1, WW2, the cold war and Bosnia. Us knuckle dragging Americans come in handy once in awhile. :-)

Because that thread wandered off into a distinctly survivalist direction.

Devils Advocate – at 13:23 --- While I agree that we in the US have the 1st Amendment, I personally came to this site to find resources pertaining to Avian Flu. I’m not a survivalist in the truest sense of what has become the meaning of the word. If I needed education on how to protect my home and family, the beginnings of that particular thread were very informative. BUT, it became so much more a thread of how to clear gangs and build gun towers and basically entrench your home and build a fortress. In all seriousness, I don’t think there are too many who really believe that there will be roving gangs trying to kick down every door looking for things to steal…er, I mean, misappropriate. Every time I see that thread pop up on the Latest 50 list, I just want to go into it and say “not again”. We’ve pretty much hashed out every possible scenario that could come up. ‘nuff said. I’ll shut up now…

Melanie….Im into survival. That makes me a survivalist. We disscuss survival here or at least we have been. Im not American either. Im a Brit and no its not all Americans who have firearms and enjoy the sport of shooting.

Im really a little confused as to all the angst !

It also has everything to do with moderator judgement. No one has been ‘banned’. The discussion thread is still there. But in my judgement, it was time to close the gun threads. They were (and are) detracting (and distracting) from the site’s mission, clearly articulated on the main page.

And, DA, it’s the majority view, not the minority view, for all we know. The vocal minority may well be the ones protesting here. It doesn’t matter; it’s Lily’s comment above that I highlighted that’s driving the decision, reflected by European and Racter.

DA,

Read the rest of the thread. It’s pretty self explanatory.

BP – at 13:28,

I don’t disagree with that :-) - But there are enough gun-loving and survivalist fora around. They are very easy to find. Before I found this forum I was look left right and center for info about the flu, prepping, analysis etc. Very few of them, the survivalist fora, could discuss a thing without mentioning a gun or two :-). Now that is useless information for a lot of people from other places around the globe. Not that I do not think about it, but I have received and found a lot more important info here in regards to surviving a possible pandemic.

Before this turns into a `right’ vs `left’, or gunowner vs non-gunowner issue, why don’t we simply accept that this was probably not an easy decision for Dem and Melanie. I’m sure they place just as high a regard on free speech as anyone here.

Bottom line, we are all guests in their `house’. They created this place with a mission, to raise panflu awareness and to encourage community solutions. To do that, this site need a certain amount of gravitas. For some people, like it or not, that perception is lost when we have a lot of survivalist threads.

As a semi-conservative gun-toting quasi-survivalist, I understand and accept that.

Look guys you have my highest respect and im not going to waste yours or my time going on about it.

All I would ask is please dont allow this site to be so controlled that people cannot ask honest questions.

This thing is yours Melanie and you have your mods who look after it but in this dangerous time of controled speech called political correctnes some of us feel a little uneasy when we see threads closed down that really in my honest opinion didnt cause any offence to me or the majority.

That said I fully accept that we are a Flu Wikki and so we stay on topic. I have always supported that view and defended it on a number of occasions as im sure you are aware.

Perhaps Im a little sensitive to free speeech being censored. In the uk PC is trying to take control and there is now a battle of idelogies raging. Those who argue with emotion and those who argue with logic. I support the logic camp who expouse truth and freedom while the PC Zealots censor, control and forbid honest debate.

I understand that is not happening here ofcourse and As I said before I have the higest regard for this Wikki.

Hope that explains where im coming from.

Look folks I will say this again, this is a great place for information and very well done by ALL the mods whether I agree with them or not. However, there is a very large issue here and that is free flow of good information (no matter if it offends you or not). While I respect their decision I do hope they do spend some time thinking about the slippery slope it creates. I agree it is a tough call to make but free speech should always be given latitude in spite of complaints.

I believe in freedom of speech. However, it is the founder’s web site and they should be the ones that are free to use it, as they will. Their freedom of expression should include the ability not have to post what they don’t want and make the rules for their site as to express things they wish. If others wish to express themselves, they have the right to start their own site and make their own rules for it. As for me I get a little uncomfortable with all the gun talk and telling me I “must” have one but I just ignore those threads….. But then I feel uncomfortable with any politics and having “DEM” in someone’s user name – but that is his choice not mine.

The beauty of it all is that we can still help each other (Knowledge is power) even with different politics, countries, living conditions, …..

DA—”this dangerous time of controled speech called political correctnes”.

Gotta say this---I don’t believe there’s anything left to say on that thread. What else is there? Mention of every type of weapon, including my own addition of a tank, has been covered. It was fun, it was (somewhat) interesting, but let’s get on with having discussions regarding how best to prepare for a possible pandemic. Haveing weapons has been included and has pretty much run it’s course. The same people seem to be hashing out the same things over and over ad nauseum on that thread, and really, it is getting a bit long in the tooth. I will publicly state here: I think it’s time to close that thread and move on….(ah jeez…did I just say MoveOn? Arrgghhh)

What about prepping to help others outside your household? What about helping the local food shelters?

For the record, Melanie, the reveres and I all have equal shares in starting this wiki. Don’t blame the others for my decision (this one was mine). That thread had been open since 26 February. My reasoning is laid out above.

I appreciate your comments, DA - truly. It wasn’t fun damping down the religion threads earlier, but, like this topic and politics, it is in my judgement better for the wiki, and the goal of flu prep, to move on and not concentraste on those contentious topics. That’s not to demean their importance, but Flu Wiki is not the time nor the place.

There will always be folks who disagree, DA. So be it. They’re not banned or disrespected. That’s my view of free speech, and it’s not censorship.

Devils Advocate makes a good strong point and I too, among many others, are concerned with some of the overal conservative trends in our culture of late. It deserves some thought concerning how this rubs off on the Wiki. Hmmmmm

Part of the difference between American and Europeans is distances, We have so much more space, and Europeans live in closer proximity, so guns are not as acceptable. I happen to like how guns look, I think a well made gun is an art object. I only own the remainder of my husbands collection, and what I have are beauts. But I doubt if I would use them, unless it is a dire emergency such as shooting a rabid animal. I know someone who was gardening, and was attacked, her husband came out an shot the rabid racoon that had gone beserk. She needed rabies shots. Now where I live you do get rabid game. Sometimes they have to be put down. Calling the police gets results for say a racoon in the fireplace, but a beserk rabid animal needs to be stopped.I stated once before that there are so many hunters in my area, that I doubt any marauding outlaw would make it to my door. I like a gun as a decoration. I am not out hunting game like the men. Everything that needed to be said about guns, had been hashed over and over and over. If your interest is hunting game, why not exchange e-mails with others whose interests are similar. Sporting men like to trade exploits and experiences in the field.Its like a wine afficiado or any other collectors hobby.

I’ve been blogging for way longer than there’s been a Flu Wiki, though I work mightily hard to keep the politics down to a minimum (just ask April). ;-)

Hear, hear!!

Hey Dem---are your other blogs public or private notes? You seem to have a varied range of topics, and are extremely adept at creating lively topics of public discussion…that’s not a critique, just an observation. Oh, and don’t think I don’t like them….what you and the others have done here has caused quite a bit of discussion and disagreement with all the topics that have flown through. The forums alone create a place where many (hundreds) of people can have their say and trade information. Good job… :-)

you’re OK if if you are a Dem. Once upon a time I even voted for a few of them…..- just kidding.

Is it true that you an Melanie are the originators of this site?

Is it true that you an Melanie are the originators of this site?

Yep. See here and here.

are your other blogs public or private notes?

Public, in the sense that they’re there for everyone to read and comment on.

You seem to have a varied range of topics, and are extremely adept at creating lively topics of public discussion…that’s not a critique, just an observation.’‘

This isn’t the first place I’ve ever moderated, nor is it the first place for Melanie or pogge. I believe in the wisdom of crowds, and the conversation is more important than a monologue.

Dem, sorry if I offended. If anyone feels my limited expereince in law enforcement, reloading and shooting antique military weapons will be of use,post a request.

Public, in the sense that they’re there for everyone to read and comment on.

I’d enjoy reading some of your other thoughts. Could you email me some of those URLs?

I certainly support Dem. I’m not American, I’m Canadian, so the attitude to guns is different. The US has this “right to bear arms” thing. As one reads all the stuff here, or actually on other threads, about firearms and “ammo” one could roll on the floor laughing, it is so hilarious. But also, it’s horrifying. You realize these people really are serious, they mean it.

Enough said.

Close this thread before it turns nasty.

Dem - thanks for all the hard work you and the other mods put in here. It is much appreciated. I understand your reasoning for closing the thread and as someone stated it is your “tent.” Though I don’t post often, I visit this site regularly and really appreciate the intelligence of the people who participate here. It was refreshing to see weapons, self-defense, civil unrest, etc. so intelligently debated by such responsible people of varying stances. It was nothing at all like what I have seen on survivalist sites. I thought the wiki had struck a very level balance in discussing such issues.

Who was forcing all those people who emailed you to look at that thread? It would seem to me that if they didn’t like it, they didn’t have to read it. It seems a shame that a thread that got so much participation should be shut down not because the content was false or promoted bad behavior, but because certain people do not like guns. Can I ask this? If BF goes H2H and is disproportionately lethal for pregnant women, will a thread be allowed that discusses abortion issues?

The URLs of our blogs have always been available here.

DA:

“Melanie has said she doesnt want this sight to be a survivilist site. Are we not talking about survival then?”

I submit that “survival” and “survivalist” are not the same thing. “Survivalist” includes religious fanatics, political extremists, and others whom most of us probably would not appreciate being lumped in with. It’s not about freedom of speech, and it’s not about political correctness; it’s about credibility. “Survivalists” includes many who are straight-up nut jobs, by anyone’s definition.

It’s already hard enough to persuade people that ones assessment of the avian flu threat represents a rational, balanced evaluation of available information. Directing newcomers to this site might be a good way to introduce them to the discussion, but given the amount of exposure the issue has already had in the media, their very status as newcomers makes it reasonable to presume that they are quite likely to be predisposed to viewing us as nut cases already — if they see “Guns and Ammo” at the top of the forum, a lot of them will bail without ever having so much as a peek at the mountain of information available here.

Whatever value there may be in examining the nuanced virtues of a High Point 9 mm semi auto rifle over a Remington pump-action 12 gauge shotgun, I would argue that it’s not worth the cost; every would-be prepper who is repulsed is one more who may be forced to desperate measures if things really do get that bad. I though Meb’s comment: “Don’t forget RPGs” was brilliant satire.

I’m not one of those who emailed Dem, by the way; I figure he’s got enough to do already. I was frequently tempted to insert my objections into the offending threads themselves, but I mostly resisted, since doing that would mainly just serve to bump such a thread yet again. I’m with DA; if this thread goes on much longer, it may become as tiresome as the ones that inspired it, and seeing this one closed would’t break my heart either. Maybe someone will start a thread on whether we should have threads like this one — but hopefully not, because we have more important things to address.

Ok, here’s my 2 cents on this issue. I have seen plenty of stuff on different threads on fluwicki that make me mad, turn me off, are laughable or just plain stupid. If I don’t like it, I either respond to it or move along. Nobody is FORCING anyone to read any particular post or thread. I feel this is yet another example of political correctness gone amuck, where no one can say anything for fear they might offend someone. I’m sure there is SOMEONE out there SOMEWHERE who is offended by beans and rice, that beans and rice goes against their religion or they’re allegic to them or something. To Dem’s way of thinking, we can’t offend anyone, therefore all references to beans and rice should be deleted. People who are so thin-skinned that they get offended and can’t cope with life because of the “offence” need medication, a psychiatrist, and to grow up. Life is hard, there will always be something that offends you, so ya better get used to it. Political correctness makes me want to PUKE!

Thanks Melanie…much appreciated.

That’s what I get for not looking around the Wiki enough.

Maybe someone will start a thread on whether we should have threads like this one — but hopefully not, because we have more important things to address.

Meta-analysis (or meta, for short) on the political blogs. I’l be happy to close this thread, too, by tomorrow. It doesn’t exist to dump on the posters here who commented in all sincerity.

In the meantime, it’s open for business.

Kim, see my comment at 13:02. Puke Wiki can be found at www.pukewikie.com…

My two cents, it doesnt matter that the discussion got closed it was discussed enough and pretty much all the important topics were covered. As I don’t want to admit it I have to agree it was a good idea. The vast majority of the general public are sheeple and they tend to stick to their preconceived notions no matter how ignorant or uninformed they are. So if a discussion about self defense turns off people that might contribute something useful then just drop it. The people that are intelligent enough to ask question can find the answers they are looking for. The rest…well I can only imagine their fate. I agree closing it was good if for nothing other than selfish reasons. We don’t want to turn off, say a doctor that might give us some drug treatment ideas now would we. The people that complained…I agree PC makes me sick and they deserve a swift kick in the pants.

I support Dem’s decision. And I say that as a proud gun-totin’ Texan. But this is the Flu-wiki, not the Gun-wiki, or the Political-Wiki or the Religion-wiki. And while some or all of those topics do come up we are all planning for the flu, this is primarily about the flu, and needs to be kept that way. It is easy to get off topic and the mods are good about keeping us focused. You can’t please everyone and I think the mods do a darned good job of keeping order around here. I enjoyed the ammunition thread myself - much of it was tongue-in-cheek and I laughed til I cried.

Now - about Dems’ blogging name - it is my understanding that I could have been Gun Owner in Texas or Catholic Mom in Texas or Dog Lover in Texas or Gun Loving Dog Owner Catholic Mom in Texas. Dem happens to be DemfromCt. Let it be.

Racter….Like some others…( Eccles springs to mind ) you have my greatest respect.

In truth I wondered at some of the content of these posts and threads and yes I smiled at the RPG comment. Dicipline has never been an issue on this forum. Ever noticed that ?

I partake of diverse discussions from time to time elswhere and I have found that this wikki is moderated to a very high degree and I say that with an air of respect. Believe it or not I have sent many people to this wikki not because I wanted them to read about guns on these posts but because I wanted people and communities to prepare, for I truely feel that is the best defence a community can have and this wikki provides that information.

Perhaps the term Survivilist means something a little different to Brits and other Europeans than it does to Americans. I guessed that certain terms like militia for example meant far more to Americans than it did to the Brits and with hindsight I regreted using that term. I think that was the first thread to close after a lot of discussion had taken place there.

I dont actually advocate gangs of armed people roaming around but you know….I hang around with guys and gals like that here in Britain…and we are very normal sane and fun loving. We perhaps are not the same as some of the so-called militia groups you have in America. In retrospect and with some research I have found some such groups in America to be objectionable but certainly not all of them. I believe that the press have painted them black unfairly although some may deserve the criticism.

This sight is about flu. Period. Thats how I ended up here. I was researching factual information regarding Pandemic Flu. The fact I use firearms did not figure when I came upon this sight. I would agree that newcomers coming to this forum may be put off by certain threads but as I mentioned above dicipline here is not a problem. Trolls have very effectively been dealt with to my satisfaction.

I believe that a warning or some other such strong guidance on what was being said would have been a more appropriate action rather than a blanket ban on certain topics of conversation. There is no evidance to suggest that anyone would have ignored any such warning nor did I see any Moderater asking to cool it on any threads that I read without it being obeyed.

Your definition of Survivilist as being ““Survivalist” includes religious fanatics, political extremists, and others “

Hmmmm….well maby in America that is how you use the term. That doesnt carry the same tag either in Britain or Europe. Perhaps despite us both using English as our primary language we have different meanings for different terms. Frankly I dont really see that as an issue.

DemFromCT has an almost uncanny ability to maintain control and maintain respect at the same time. My only disapointment with Dem is to hear he is a guy and not some raven haired female beauty as I had imagined. :) Oh well back to the drawing board. ( Kidding )

This thread may close and it no doubt will…..perhaps its for the best “ for a kingdom divided aginst itself will fall “ and unity and mutual respect is vital to combating what may turn out to be a serious test of humanity. Such mutual respect and cooperation is also needed here even on this forum and I would ask that we leave it at this. We have said what we have said and I respect all the comments that have been made. I may not always agree with them and I feel a little offended at some that suggested that people who have Firearms are some kind of nutters buy hey !….we are all entitled to our opinion….at least so long at the Politically Correct Zealots dont gain or maintain power so that we have the freedom to say and air our opinions.

I think thats about it from me on this topic.

I hope it closes now because im only going to be drawn again to this conversation if it continues and I dont know if thats beneficial to anyone.

Enough said I feel but my thanks to all who have at least had the decency to listen to me and those who supported what I said.

Dem - my apologies if my post sounded nasty, I didn’t mean it to. Anything that smacks of survivalist will surely turn off people who need this info and fluwiki should be concerned about how it presents itself.

Best wishes,

U.O.

I must admit, when I first came to the site and read my first discussion thread, it was “how much ammo is enough?” and I thought I must have wandered in on a bunch of “fringe” survivalists. Luckily I read on to see that there were many opinions from a much wider audience. Sure, survivalists are here, but so are homemakers, scientists, medical professionals, blue collar, white collar, no collar, educated and barely so, etc etc. I have found that the totality of comments is what makes this site great. It is a microcosm of society and a good idea of what “people” will be thinking when BF does become a popular topic in everyone’s minds.

One thing I am very happy about is that this site is not overrun by children. When sites get a bunch of kids, posting just to infuriate or using obscenities in their attempt to sound cool or grown up, that is the quickest way to lose the good contributors and appear as a joke of a site.

Hopefully the moderators can keep this the great site that it is!

Devils Advocate – at 15:37

My only disapointment with Dem is to hear he is a guy and not some raven haired female beauty as I had imagined. :)

Well, I do have dark hair. But think Rick Moranis as a mental picture, not George Clooney.

But anyway, like all the threads here, respect all around.

Ok Dem now you got my attention…: link

lol

The topic is important and needs to be discussed.

After having thought more about it I think it is wrong to close the more ammo thread, here is why.

Sure, it is their tent but they built a tent that is public for everyone to use and they ask everyone to use it. It no longer belongs to them alone if they want it to continue to be “public.” You can’t have it both ways. You can figure out the “they” for yourself, I am not casting stones at any one person.

Free speech is as American as it gets. This ceases to be American inspired when it begins to censor things that some do not like. Nothing against people from other nations but the wiki is dominated by and has a definite American flavor.

Like it or not in all its silliness, guns are part of our culture and the acquisition and use of guns is part of “surviving” the pandemic for some people.

The Wiki is greatly diminished by taking away that distinctly American flavor and it is no longer a public forum.

I do think that ammo stuff could be restricted to one or two threads but it has a right to be here as much as anything else. I believe, based on what I have seen, that Mods have the ability to consolidate threads.

If the desire is to have a wiki for a particular set of people with a particular set of values then that should be stated at the opening, then there is no deception in advertising.

When censorship is introduced (aside from normal etiquette) I wonder if “Wiki” is the right name for this site.

If the Wiki is a Wiki it no longer belongs to the people who started it anymore than the founding fathers “own” the USA. By the way I have relatives who did in fact own Harlem but I think that they should be paid what they paid, a hand full of beads or some such.

If it is a matter of taxes, ask and you shall receive.

I think that we are taking about principles here and the evolution of the Wiki. Is censorship the direction it should take??

There are other venues such as journals, bbs, weblogs, but none of them are quite like a wiki. The animal has been created (somewhat like the nauga from which we get naugahide) and it is no longer the property of the creator.

JoeW – at 17:48

Thanks for your thoughtful opinion.

I totally agree that the ammo threads have a right to be here and should be here. This sight is for all views and all levels of prep. We won’t know who prepped too much or too little until after this (if anything) is all over with. And if it does occur, my personal view is that whether someone else over or under-prepped will not be anything someone is worried about. they will only be concerned with their own prepping!

Get over the closed thread. Y’all know how Dem is. I’m just glad that for once it was not closed because of me. :-)

JoeW – at 17:56

Nonetheless, there will be from time to time topics that will be ‘redirected’. The inability to add to a 2 week old thread is hardly censorship. We’ve asked people not to spend time here talking about a handful of issues including religion, politics, and (now) guns and ammo have been added to the list. They are distractions and do not allow focus on the main topic of the wiki, which is pandemic flu (and prep for same).

The moderators, in fact, reserve the right to set limits on threads, topics and participation. Like it or not, you cannot have a successful and functioning Forum without limits and without moderators. And the editors reserve the same rights for the wiki. Like it or not, you cannot have a successful and functioning wiki without limits and without editors.

Get your butts over to irc….with respect this convo is quite good….would like to see dem and others here :)

April – at 18:06

Appreciate it. I’m not always right. But I’m always trying to be.

I don’t think censorship has anything to do with closing the Guns ‘n Ammo thread. It’s still there, available for one and all to read and come away with their own conclusions. Basically, it boils down to one of two things: either get lots of guns and protect your house will all the firepower you can muster, or don’t.

We’ve run the gamit on how much, how big, how many, which caliber, nightfire, how much to practice, how to stop a target, what to do with that target after the fact, and just about everything having to do with using firepower to protect your property.

Nothing was censored, nothing was taken away from the discussion. But the thread was getting way too long, tedious and boring.

I agree with the decision to close the thread, just for the record. Just leave it available to read.

Agreed…now get onto irc.

I agree that it’s a subject that needs to be discussed.

How about dropping in at the Survival Forum at Gunsnet.net That is probably a more appropriate place.

Ah the gun threads…. I will miss them, but I can see the point in taking them out. If newbies come in and have the attitude of “….well maybe this pandemic thing is not so crazy….” and they open one of the top threads about bullet speeds etc., they are likely, IMHO, to say “…oh yeah, it is just crazy talk….” (right or wrong) and that will not get the word out any faster. Fluwiki has received some much deserved national attention from USA Today etc. It could very well be one the first stops people make as they come to grips with what is on the way….

That being said, I could not help but to chuckle at the thought of Oprah on her Panflu episode, demonstrating a proper presentation from concealed carry…heheh.. long day… slap silly…

I don’t think it is about length, boring or anything but censorship, not allowing people to speak their mind is censorship.

Can we appoint a special self-defense moderator and keep the discussions? Maybe we could even have a rule about naming the threads with tasteful names so as not to put off new people. Like “Self defense strategies: do not read if you are put-off by gun discussion” Maybe we could inform new people that our self-defense threads are for intelligent discussion, the same as the rest of the threads here. The threads are no more whacko-survivalist than any of the other discussions. Its hard to find intelligent, mature and reliable information elsewhere on the web and for the most part, I trust folks here.

The news thread is closed every day and a new one is opened up. If ammo is closed it rates being reopened based on interest alone. As a defender of the faith (see Tom Paine) the flu wiki public has spoken.

Well said peej. Agree with you.

Face it, when we come here we agree to play by the rules of this site. That is not censorship. There are plenty of sites dedicated to firearms and survival. This is a pandemic flu site. Speak your mind all you want, but do it on the appropriate site.

Boy am I on a high horse, actually a little to high for me. If you are not a liberal when you are young you have no heart. If you are not a conservative when you old you have do head (Desrali or someone like that, corrections are welcomed). I fall in the latter category.

Agreed, Peej has a good idea. AVanarts, I think it is about the evolution of a wiki, Two mutations from a ditatorship. Oh that was bad, I’ll go sit next to Eccles and be quiet.

AVanarts - We want to discuss self-defense as it relates specifically to pandemic flu so this site is appropriate. We want to play by the rules but there aren’t clear rules about what topics are allowed.

When you have a code in your node you say “do head.” when the sinus clears it is “no head.”

Peej – at 18:45

Sure there are. But like viruses, the rules evolve. From the Main Page:

The purpose of the Flu Wiki is to help local communities prepare for and perhaps cope with a possible influenza pandemic. This is a task previously ceded to local, state and national governmental public health agencies. Our goal is to be:

• a reliable source of information, as neutral as possible, about important facts useful for a public health approach to pandemic influenza
• a venue for anticipating the vast range of problems that may arise if a pandemic does occur
• a venue for thinking about implementable solutions to foreseeable problems

The focus is on community. See if you can focus on community without guns and ammo. Or seek another Forum for the topic (AVanarts suggested one; there may be others).

One of the themes I have hammered on is that a community is necessary for self protection. That no one person or family is going to make it on their own. One needs to be prepared. So, in this sense you violate your own principles as stated above. Sure people wander, they wander on all threads.

(of topic ;-) : I just tried to look at the Italian pandemic plan in English and ended up at the Ireland health ministry or so.)

really? must be monotreme’s fault. ;−0

I’ll check it out.

JoeW – at 18:56

Sorry. I don’t buy the logic. The decision stands.

Okay, clearly its been decided already. We are capable of leaving guns and ammo out of the discussion but please note: this is not a group decision. Those of us who wanted to keep the self-defense threads have offered several very reasonable compromises. My opinion of the “wiki” format and its mission of diversity and disseminator of neutral information has changed for the worse. The topic of self-defense during a pandemic will continue to be raised by new people unless you post a list of all the off-limits topics and that will really put people off.

Dem wont back down no matter what reasoning is given. Best leave it at this guys. We can continue another assaust another time.

Just pack some Dynamite next time :)

The wiki is like a Chautauqua where people would meet and swap all kinds of ideas. There was always time to discuss any issue in the process of raising a barn, trading items, and fixing food. The conversation was polite and people kicked in whatever they had to offer, all were welcome and a great community formed, because there was room for all to speak. Those who found that these several day meetings were not to their liking simply went away of their own accord. The idea was so well received that it has become a part of American culture and I suspect that the idea of a wiki may have its roots in this great, unappreciated, cultural event.

Great and it is your decision because you make it your decision.

I note DemFromCt that you do not address the issues as raised, you state your position. I wonder if that is as it should be, I submit the Wiki does not belong to you and perhaps you need to check with the regular contributors or do you insist the Wiki belongs to the moderators?

Peej – at 19:07

The input is invaluable, and it has been mixed (if you were fair-minded, you’d see that). But as noted above, the final decisions as to what happens here are up to the editors and moderators. I take full responsibility for my decisions.

Mods----how’s about this? And I don’t know if you can do this or not---move that thread to the Family Preparedness page. Set it up with a caveat that the opinions expressed are those of Wikians who feel that one of the ways to prepare is to have some semplance of self-defense in their home, or something like that. Let the newbies decide at that point whether or not it’s worth reading. That way, it stays on the Wiki, but doesn’t cause a firestorm in the forums…

Just a thought…

Devils Advocate a person who cannot reconsider their position in the face of additional information leaves something to be desired. The people on this wiki are not children who need to be told what decisions have been made.

JoeW – at 19:10

I’ve addressed every issue raised; you just don’t care for the responses (and that I can’t help). But I’m doing what I think best for the wiki, not what’s best for me.

I need to attend to some other business, so I’ll be away for a few hours. But I’ll read everything you post.

JoeW….I have read your posts on this forum and you have created many fine contributions. If I know DemFromCT’s personality he wont budge out of principle.

Ofcourse he might proove me wrong but I doubt it. He feels by doing so he would loose face.

He wouldent ofcourse……but thats not an easy thing for him to do. You must understand what and who you are dealing with m8.

BroncoBill – at 19:11

I can’t do that AND keep the thread off the main Forums page… it automatically appears and pops up to the top. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

:)

I better stop or hes going to get cross with me….and in truth I really admire him.

JoeW,

If you want a self defense wiki, go start one. This site is about pandemic influenza. DA, you really have no idea who you are dealing with. Dem is one of the most reasonable people I’ve ever met. I’m the hardass around here. pogge is sort of in the middle between us. We’ve all got years of experience moderating boards and lists and the rules we came up with are based on that experience. You don’t get to yell fire in a crowded theater. A discussion has gone over the edge when we say it has. If you don’t like that, you are free to post elsewhere.

DA, I’m not cross with you or JoeW. Nor do I see it as a left-right issue (if I did, I’d pull a Ronald Reagan and point out that “I’m paying for this microphone” and you’re not). ;-)

But I’m not stubborn in the sense that I won’t or can’t change my mind. I’m stubborn in that I think I’m doing the right thing for the wiki.

Cheers!

Melanie----YOU GO, GIRL!!

Well, I came to this lively discussion pretty late. The only thing I would add is that you can post all the forum rules that you want but sooner or later something will come up that is just this bit south of staying within the purpose of the forum, and somebody has to make a judgement.

I don’t think there is any need to make this bigger than it is. Dem is not infringing on anybody’s right to free speech, just exercising his perogative to keep things tidy and on track. Sort of like the chairman’s vote when you have a even split on a committee.

Heck, someone has to do the job…

Devils Advocate perhaps you are correct and that is a shame. The Wiki is bigger than any one, two, or three people and that is what was intended when it was formed. Perhaps a breather (work or whatever that DemFromCt) needs will give him time to think. But what do others think? You all know where we live and who we are. God, I feel like an insurrectionist and I am anything but that. There are important principles here.

DemFrom Ct. The issue is not that you do what is best for everyone but that everyone should have a say.

Issues that I have not seen you (or the other moderators) address:

The Wiki was built as a public forum and it is not public in the American sense of that term when censorship is imposed.

Is the Wiki a particular set of principles for a particular set of people that is narrowly defined by a few people?

The Wiki as a public forum is the product of all its contributors and they should be consulted when you abridge American principles.

If the Wiki is not a public forum this needs to be stated so that it is known that it is the results and the sole(?) product of a few.

You state the Wiki’s purpose at 18:51 and I show you where you are in violation of your own principles at 18:56 and you fail to respond.

Through censorship you remove the American spirit from the Wiki.

The ammo thread could be restricted to one or two threads and consolidated as needed. Peej has half-assed volunteered to moderate and I bet you could coerce him with an AR15 or something.

Is Wiki the right name for this site in view of the above?

I maintain the Wiki does not belong to a few? Do you disagree?

Is it a matter of taxes (as outlined above)?

Why could there not be a self-defense thread just as there is a news thread that is reopened everyday?

Addendum, per the demand (postngs)in the self defense thread there is a perceived need for such a thread, is there not?

JoeW,

You talk of high sounding principles and use big words like censorship. If this was true censorship, the thread would not just be closed, but be deleted. AND we would not be debating it here.

If you want a self-defense thread every day, set up a self-defense wikie.

Otherwise, let’s go back to talking about pan flu and how to help each other.

JoeW,

When you start paying the rent on this place, then you get to decide what kind of a forum it is going to be.

Until that happens, you are a guest in someone else’s house.

Because (he patiently explained for the umpteenth time) the topic and discussion of self defense (as it has been practiced) is scaring new users away. I do not think it in the best interests of the wiki to have that happen. I do not see how it could not happen if we reopened the topic. The same would happen with politics and religion. There is a precedent for what I have done.

As for your list of what you consider censorship issues and other free speech principles, let me say again (see DemFromCT – at 12:37) there is no free speech. There is moderated speech. This is a moderated Forum. These principles that you have articulated have not been ignored, as you accuse me several times of doing. Read the link. I am a moderator. I have moderated the thread in question. I (and the other mods) will continue to do so. You get to have input. I (and the other mods) get the final say, except as to whether you stay or go. That’s up to you.

You want it in simple terms, black and white. There it is. But life is really in shades of gray, and it’s unfortunate that you insist on the black or white picture.

Melanie, is it true that you created a public house for people to contribute to your issues. If so then you fly under a false flag and that should be noted per my above presentation of some of the issues.

I can just picture THE POWERS THAT BE sitting around some big mahogany table or what not, in an even bigger conference room discussing whether or not “some people “ will be offended ,”if we tell them “… “it’s coming”.. “no ,no we better not” “they might realize we have been asleep at the switch” “they might get angry, or panic” “or run amok in the street looting,and rioting”… or they might prepare !!! Information, the right information could save lives.

 just my 2 cents.

No, we didn’t, Joe. The rules have been published for months. If you don’t like them, I suggest that is not my problem.

Moderated speech is one thing, censorship is another. To close a thread and imply(?) that such threads are not allowed is censorship. Perhaps you have created something bigger than you realize and in that you have additional responsibilities to guide the development of the wiki if it is to grow.

read a lot of the opions- unless its R- rated a personnel attack on a member-dont let personnel fellings in it-medical can be at different location like you said guns should be. demfromct where are you from?normally north guns BAD south GUNS good im from the south.I agree that some people go overboard but personnal protection is a real concern and should be addressed

read a lot of the opions- unless its R- rated a personnel attack on a member-dont let personnel fellings in it-medical can be at different location like you said guns should be. demfromct where are you from?normally north guns BAD south GUNS good im from the south.I agree that some people go overboard but personnal protection is a real concern and should be addressed

Melanie it may not be your problem but it may be the problem of all those who contribute in a restricted atmosphere. It may be a problem in the development of a wiki. I am suggesting that a mistake is being made and no reasonable answers are given other than we will do it our way and if you don’t like it leave. Where is the reasonableness in that?

JoeW – at 20:07

You will, at some point, come to the acceptance that repeating that charge doesn’t make it stick. You are not free to do whatever you want (no matter what it is) at any public site on the internet I am aware of. Nor at any public space, for that matter.

I (and the other mods) will censor obscenity, troll behavior, personal attacks and things I haven’t thought of (but I’ll know it when I see it), even though there’s no list in advance. I will do so based on my judgement. You’re a true libertarian (and take it as a complement) but get over it. These threads will continue to be moderated.

I think that you make a mistake, only time will tell.

I find that comments by a number of contributors on several subjects are a bit “over-the-edge” for my kind of thinking. But, I wanted to read them to better understand all perspectives. Nevertheless, I respect the decision to close a topic.

Many years ago, when working in talk radio, I knew that I couldn’t cover every topic that every listener wanted to persue. That doesn’t mean that I was anti First Amendment.

The Second Amendment is also dear to my heart. I watched as the gun grabbers in N’awlins took away the only means of protection that some law abiding citizens had. Then I watched the calvary, in the form of the NRA, come to the rescue. That’s when I decided to upgrade my NRA membership from ‘Life’ to ‘Benefactor’.

You see, before the winds of Katrina had died I looked out MY back door and saw the looters at the neighborhood pharmacy. I couldn’t believe it was happening in MY small town community. But it was.

Four days later I was waiting with co-workers to receive a shipment of food, water, and fuel being sent into the disaster area by my employer. The truck load of food and water arrived safely, but we learned that the fuel truck was broken down about forty miles from town. The driver was holding off desperate people with a handgun. A group of my co-workers scrambled, armed with tools, spare parts, and firearms to rescue the driver (and our fuel).

I’ve very recently seen the need for all types of preparedness for a disaster. The need for the ability to defend ones self IS one of them. I hope that because it is not discussed in depth here that readers won’t be led to believe that it shouldn’t be seriously considered.

That said, I remain very grateful for having been provided the information I’ve found here, and I respect the decision to limit the discussion as desired by the founders.

wilson161 – at 20:11

Connecticut ;-) Lots of folks hunt and own guns on my block. That’s not the issue.

Religion and politics are two other topics that aren’t ‘bad’, just not appropriate for here.

I have often said that he who argues loudest in a public debate is not always right. More often they are wrong. I was not making accusations but pointing out what could evolve into a serious problem. I truly believe that when all the rhetoric dies down, the truth will speak for itself. My comments were not intended to be a personal attack but points worthy of consideration.

JoeW,

“no reasonable answers are given other than we will do it our way and if you don’t like it leave. Where is the reasonableness in that?”

I believe that you misrepresent the situation on purpose.

Because Dem has been giving more answers than can be reasonably expected from a fellow human being, one of the most important being that this talk of guns scare newbies away. As a non-American, I can tell you that such talks do scare people away.

But I don’t think you are interested in that at all. You appear hell-bent on making the moderators concede that all forum participants have a say in such decision making. Well, that ain’t gonna happen.

Even in a democracy, the elected official has the power to make day-to-day decisions without having to consult his constituents. Otherwise, nothing will ever get done. If voters don’t like it, they can vote for someone else next time. But in the interval before the next election, they just have to put up with it.

If you don’t like this forum, you can vote with your feet.

Put up or shut up. There’s freedom for you.

JoeW – at 20:18

I think that you make a mistake, only time will tell.

I respect that. And don’t think for a minute you’re not being listened to. ;-)

JoeW,

It’s called “exercising judgement.” Sure we might be wrong, but we are working from our own experience.

Melanie you say you are a hard ass. In truth I think Dem is a hard ass and I admire him for it. He is the one who states his opinions and stands by them.

He is the one who took the decision to close the thread not you. He has stood alone on this and is doing a good job of defending his stance on this.

Saying things like

“JoeW,

When you start paying the rent on this place, then you get to decide what kind of a forum it is going to be.

Until that happens, you are a guest in someone else’s house. “ is a bit like a kid saying its my toy and you cant play with it !

Frankly I dont think Dem needs you to defend him as was doing better alone.

please stop.. all of you , its getting tiredsome.. all points has been made.

The right to “free speech on this forum” as the title of this thread states is a fragile principle. Using a euphemism such as “moderator” needs to be thoughtfully considered. I do not disagree that moderation is needed. The question is when does it cross the line. My second point is what is the wiki to become? How should it be guided?

Totalitarianism is an ugly thing often pursued by those of a more communist persuasion.

DA,

I state my opinions and stand by them, too, as well as stating my reasons. You’ll note that in the ten months we’ve been on line how few times we’ve had to take this position. You all have an enormous amount of leeway here, but this is not a democracy and never has been. We put up the rules when we opened shop. If you don’t like ‘em, take your business elsewhere.

I feel like a little mouse, crouched in a corner of a stadium during, what? An American Superbowl! And, in a way, that’s what this Forum is, the Superbowl of panflu discussions.

That being the case, I shall speak softly and ONLY to the point of we (foreign) mice, to whatever interest or use that may be to this robust discussion.

As always, no one participant’s views are those of everyone. People agonising about American’s so-called obsession with firearms and how ‘dreadful’ that is make me alternately wet myself laughing and then angry as hell with them.

There are, especially for we non-Americans, TWO FREEDOMS involved here: The freedom to speak (for ourselves and for others) AND the freedom to not listen. If the title seems irrelevant to my needs—or perhaps distasteful—why the hell should I click on it!

It makes me boil to see outrage expressed by, just pretend, a European—after he has read down thirty or forty pages of a thread, just pretend, about ammunition stockpiling.

Like the people who view a film or video clearly labeled Adult and XXX, and then write vitriolic Letters to Editors.

If vegetarians and vegans dislike ‘How to store and preserve meat’ should that be stricken from the contents—or should the vegans? Neither. I suggest some discipline and respect from non-Americans and I have valued the kind and patient reception I have received on this Forum.

Not merely “If you don’t like this forum, you can vote with your feet,” but MORE IMPORTANTLY I vote with my feet daily by walking to my computer and logging on!

Gotta run now. This is “cat” country, I fear! <big grin>

Anon_22 , “I believe that you misrepresent the situation on purpose.” Please, I am not trying to simply “win” an argument. I think the issues are real and some have not been addressed except with simplistic answers. That is not, in my opinion, a good discussion of the issues and so I try to get an answer. I suspect that Dem realizes that my concerns are real, not simply talking points. I doubt that there is any real resolution to this problem but that does not mean that the issues are not worthy of discussion. Some points may be useful at a later point. Difficult decisions need to be thought through and comments from others are not necessarily acrimonious for the sake of acrimony. If I point out a weakness in the other person argument it is intended to elicit a thoughtful response. I make no diatribes here, at least I try not to.

Perhaps I enjoy conducting my business here Melanie. I dont dispute anything you say but I am taking note. I will be sure to make sure that others take note as well. I may well be from the UK but I do have friends elswhere even in America.

I credit you with the fact that you started this Flu wikki…..if indeed it was you as we are led to believe single handed.

My congratulations.

A measure of true success is not making it but keeping it.

Melanie, this may not be a democracy here on Fluwiki, but you live in one and many of us who congregate here have given much more than you realize so that you could exercise free speech. Perhaps you need to think about that. We are all interdependent.

JoeW, you have not addressed the bottom line, that SOMEONE has to have the final say. In this instance, it happened to be Dem.

And it’s not as if the fluwikie is the only place where things are done this way. Does the NY Times editor have the final say? Absolutely! You can refuse to buy the paper. You can quit your job if you work for them. But the rule of every single publication is that THE EDITOR HAS THE FINAL SAY.

That is the definition of an editor.

BTW I personally do not care one way or the other whether the thread should have been closed. I do object to this almost-thrashing of a hard-working public-spirited person contributing his time for free.

Just my two cents.

and we all have responsibilities to maintain our way of life.

Could we try an experiment with the self-defense discussion? If it doesn’t work and you continue to get all those hate emails, then we can drop it. I say let’s create an on-going thread called something along the lines of “intelligent and mature discussion of self-defense strategies. warning: this thread contains material that might be considered offensive to people who feel strongly against the use and ownership of weapons, so please if you are one of those people move on to the next thread. this thread should not be considered representative of the opinions and sentiments of the site as a whole, it is merely an expression of the diversity of opinions which is part of the wiki model”

I just did a search for “guns” and there aren’t even that many threads on the topic, and just looking at the titles, it certainly doesn’t look like we’re a bunch of survivalist whackos. Maybe the complaints the moderators are receiving are from one or two liberal-PC-whackos or, anti-American-whackos who saw a thread title with the word “ammo” and decided to bombard us with hate email.

I really wish the moderators would consider a compromise because the topic will continue to be raised by worried newcomers and oldcomers who saw what happened during Katrina. Why not make this a place for intelligent discussion so people don’t feel like they have to go to the SoldierofAnarchyWiki to get their questions answered.

I am not thrashing DemFromCt, I am asking him to consider, and perhaps reconsider. And I am giving reasons why this needs to be done. The bottom line is what is the wiki to become? Is it a newspaper, a blog, an ebook, a bbs, or is it something new — a wiki and how should it evolve? These are real issues.

I truely fear that no one is listening. They have their status and need to keep face even in the full spotlight of astonishment that PC Political Correctness is creeping in here. I didnt honestly believe that this was happening but the more this debate goes on the more im inclined to see a political motive at work.

I see not just a liberal view being expressed but a socilist/communist view which if truth be know is not just anti American but anti western. Perhaps its time to notify certain people to what may be getting suggested here and why.

Do I see ACLU sentiments at work ?

Do the Republican movements need to be alerted to the tone this wikki is taking. Anti American / Anti Freespeech. Anti Constitution ?

Please tell me im wrong here .

In the for what its worth column, Anon_22, I have used guns far to much and have as little to do with them as possible. I have one because it is necessary, and God help me, I know how to use it but I hope to never NEVER use it again. But that is not the issue.

JoeW, those are serious issues. We, the editors, have made the decision that this forum is not going to become a podium for survivalist isolationists. Period. The spirit of this place has always been the spirit of public health, which is community. It’s part of our mission statement. You can’t say anything here any more than you can say anything in print in any public place. We have rules and we enforce them. You don’t have to like them.

Thank you.

testing…. My other post seems to have disappeared. Hmmm.

Devils Advocate I am none of those things. I am not even all that liberal except in a very strong belief in the American way of life. I prefer to think of my self as a citizen of the world as my first (deceased) wife did. She was from Edinburgh, Scotland and most of my in-laws are “off the boat” and residents of Canada - not a very liberal bunch hey

Melanie - I’m curious: what is your definition of a “survivalist isolationist?” and is there a specific thread that you found especially offensive, I’d like to review it so I can understand your position better.

Devil’s Advocate,

I’m very thick skinned and truly takes quite a bit to piss me off, but imputing motives to people you have never met raises my hackles very high. What Dem and I have told you is the truth. The integrity of this site matters to us. If you think we need to get ego strokes from a wiki, you seriously have your head on sideways. This decision has nothing to do with PC and everything to do with the wiki.

By the way, for the record, I didn’t start this wiki alone. It was, and has always been, a joint effort between myself, Dem, the reveres and pogge.

“ We, the editors, have made the decision “

“ not going to become a podium for survivalist isolationists “

“You can’t say anything here any more “

“We have rules and we enforce them “

“You don’t have to like them.”

Ok Melanie. Do we call you sir from now on ? Lord ?

I thought isolation was a tactic that many of us were seriously considering. Dont you like isolationists now….or people who want to survive ( survivalists ) ?

Bring back Dem please. He made sense and kind of kept control and respect at the same time.

……waiting for Dem to stand in and restore order.

Isn’t this site about survival?!

Isn’t this site about survival?!

Dem and I are saying nothing different. You’ll get respect when you offer some instead of baseless charges.

And again, at the risk of sounding repetitive, thank you all.

lol my last post just disapeared !

As pogge reminds me all the time, there is no such thing as a perfect piece of software. Those of us who use Win are more than aware of that.

Good grief, people. If you want informed discussions about firearms and self defense, try www.thefiringline.com (or maybe give them a day or two since the server seems to be down…). Most of the people posting about it here seemed to be Rambo fantasists anyway.

And yeah. I own guns.

Sheesh whassamattaU guns is a dirty word here now !

Face it, folks, I think this wiki has slid down the slope of PC… I have seen plenty of posts on various threads here that I thought were from absolute loons, medical “advice” that is questionable at best, recipes that I wouldn’t feed to my dog, opinions that I thought must have come straight from Stalin. I didn’t send a cry-baby email to any moderator about any of them. Apparently if you’re not a “touchy-feely, everybody in the world is really nice no matter what they do and he only lopped that guy’s head off because his mommy was mean to him, I will joyfully give my child’s bread to that big fat slob next door who never even mowed his grass, guns are a tool of the devil” kind of person, you’re not welcome on this wiki. Protection of self and family (at least I THOUGHT) was what this wiki was supposed to be about. It seems to be only a further push towards socialism, where everyone must share all they have with everyone no matter what the cost to themselves. Hope that everyone’s neighbors will play as nice as Dem and Melanie think they will.

Within every large software package lies a smaller one struggling to get out. But every time you debug software to make it idiot proof some idiot will find another bug. So I often wonder, who is the idiot here if he out foxes me every time.

lol….another post just disapeared….dam that software….eh melanie

Kim,

I am myself a shooter who NRA qualified at the age of 8. All of us, the mods, are professionals who deal regularly with the results of other people’s bad choices around firearms. The fact that you can’t follow the arguments on this thread tells me that you don’t require a serious reply.

You’re welcome, Timber.

Some find this discussion tiresome (and have said so); I don’t. I think JoeW has real concerns; I think they’ll never be satisfied, alas, because there’ll always be moderators exercising judgement.

The Main Page describes this as an ‘experiment’ and it is. But I think we’ll have to file this away for future discussion as we see the wiki (which is more than the Forum) evolve.

Thank you all for your participation.

You as thick skinned as you say ?

Kay is home and I am off to husbandly duties (AKA good movie on DVD). Night all, I was not and am not trying to hurt anyone’s feelings or impune their integrity. And that is all I have to say about that - Forest Gump (may be my real name!)

Third post deleted lol

I said…for the third time….melanie…you cant argue your way out of a paper bag !

going to delete this one too :)

The tone of these interchanges is neither representative of this Forum nor of American dialogue, IMHO. Clearly firearms is an intensely emotive issue! I cannot conceive such heated discussion about, say, ‘euthanasia of dying victims’ which well could elicit a similar storm here in Austalia.

Interesting. This Forum is educational on more levels than just pandemic preparation. I have no sides to take, except that IMO non-Americans should be thoughtful and polite!

God Bless the lot of you, of all persuasions!

I guess if your not a socialist/communist your opinion doesnt count here anymore.

“Sheesh whassamattaU guns is a dirty word here now !”

I ain’t skeered :)

But as someone who also moderates forums, I fully support the mods here setting any guidelines they choose. There are already many forums online where one can find excellent, informed advice and opinions on firearms, self defense, home defense, mounting an invasion of a neighboring county - whatever you want.

Frankly, many of the posters on firearms issues on this forum ranged from the simply clueless to the obviously loony. If I want good advice on that, I go elsewhere.

Ahhhh, I see now Melanie (at 21:40), the awful truth comes out now… you just don’t LIKE guns unless they are kept in a locked closet, perhaps disassembled, and only brought out to the light of day if someone as good as you decides it should be brought out, to be touched and looked and perhaps even fired (ohhh, dirty word!) only by someone as good as you. Thanks for the clarification.

Devil’s Advocate,

When you make a coherent argument, I’ll answer it. Ad hominem attacks aren’t a coherent argument.

Dem closed the thread in the interest of the integrity of the wiki. I supported him in that. And your issue is…?

Well after having about four posts deleted which were in no way out of order but merely expressing freedom of speech about our “ Leader “ I find it hard and increasingly so to take this wikki seriously which is a shame as it started out very well indeed.

PS. Trolls need to get more clever. The ones we attract don’t have much imagination beyond imitating posters to start an argument.

Melanie…im really glad Dem came to rescue you. You sure needed it. But you have made a very serious error of judgement for no one respects anyone who comands a position as you who cant argue your case without deleting posts.

Nikolai 21:25

Didnt see any trolls here Dem….and glad to see you here.

Oh, I guess I messed that up. Sorry.

Frankly melanie is simply not able to argue….which amazes me. She can threaten and delete. But hey any mod can do that. It doesnt exactly take brains does it ?

Devils Advocate- take the rest of us seriously the wiki is no more than a sum of it’s contributors .I value your spirited contributions and am certain others do as well I hope you keep posting here .

Do I have to suggest you close this thread a third time. ?

I’m responding to this from the perspective of someone who saw the thread start a little while ago, had no interest in it, mainly because I knew it would be offensive and decided to not to read it.

I’ve been a regular reader since Sept and have posted a few times. So although you don’t know me I’m familiar with the regular posters.

The fact is if your not interested in a thread, just don’t read it. I don’t get people reading threads they are offended by and then sending e-mails to Dem and Melanie whining about it.

It seems people with a real interest in that topic want to discuss it with the folks here they’ve gotten to know and value. The problem is this topic degenerates into a bunker mentality and ends up being something the mods don’t want the wiki to be a part of.

Somehow you have to police yourselves and keep this subject within the boundaries the mods have set down.

If we who find that topic unreal can just stay off those threads and let it be, then you should use restraint and not let the topic get too off the wall so the mods can let it alone.

Indyra…Thanks…I just believe in honesty and free debate. I believe in truth and justice.

Devil’s Advocate,

And I ask yet again, and your argument would be? When you don’t get the answer you want out of me, you just level charges. That’s not argument.

No one deleted your posts. The software eats them once in a while.

As a gun-shy Left Coast Canadian, I’ll have to second our friend “Watching in Texas”, who said it best:

“I support Dem’s decision. And I say that as a proud gun-totin’ Texan. But this is the Flu-wiki, not the Gun-wiki, or the Political-Wiki or the Religion-wiki.

Now DA, why don’t you start a thread on kinky sex tips to keep people occupied while in isolation and test how far you can push the Mods on that one.

:-)

BTW, there is no absolute right of free speech, not in the USA, Canada or anywhere else, never has been, never will. Those rights have always been limited by libel/slander laws, noise abatement ordinances, hate crime laws, even profanity laws. No right is ever absolute—my right to swing my fists around as I wish ceases the moment a fist connects with someone’s chin, for example.

Ok lets stop this now. Lets get focused again on flu not self defense. Lets give our moderators a break ok??? Devils advocate just go to your corner and take a breather.

Melanie….I believe you…truely I do.

Im glad Dem has had a word and explained the proper way to command respect and how to debate an arguement without deleting it…..erm I mean without the software eating it which has never ever ever happened before. Dam those solar eclipses.

Name,

Amen. We’ve got flu to fight, not each other.

Lol name….hehe…dam you Texans….you always have a way of sobering us all up and laying things straight :)

….trudges off back to his corner for a breather. :)

Thank you DA. There is just something about me that when I get on a thread I tend to kill the conversation. My personality;) anyway things were getting too intense, time for some Barney music and and nice cup of tea:) deep breathe and happy thoughts everyone!

Good night, all.

Night Dem.

G’night, Dem boy.

DA,

Really, it happens. It’s happened to me more than once. Deleting anything on this platform is really time intense and problematic and we hardly ever resort to it because it is so clumsy and time intensive. Doing it on a fast-moving thread like this one would be impossible. Deletion is reserved for trolls and spammers.

(Taking a suggestion from flrish5)

From Barney, to everyone here:

“I love you, you love me

We’re a great big family.

With a great big hug

and a kiss from me to you

Won’t you say you love me too!”

I’m a (multiple) gun owner (just shot last weekend). I’m also not a “socialist/communist”.

I’ve stumbled over literally dozens of gun boards that talk about various self-defense scenarios ad nauseum; why does that have to be repeated here?

The moderators are free to choose the direction of this board; if someone wants to focus on something else, they are free to start their own board. That’s as American as it comes.

I’m a moderator on PeakOil.com, and we’ve had our share of survivalists, many of whom could not stay within simply guidelines and ended up getting banished (none by me, but each deserved it).

So if you need to explore areas that are not within the scope of this forum, then find another forum that more closely matches your desired topics.

G’night, Monotreme. I love you, too.

Hmmmm. Ok.

Bush loves you melanie…….truely he does…..he wants you to be happy. To be free. Close your eyes and relax. Hear His voice reaching out to you. Turn away from those sinful liberal ways and embrace the light……

Seriously..

Melanie….I dont want to go to war with you. Im here because I want to prepare and plan and get a heads up on Pandemic Flu.

Do You ?

ok…..But we all here dont like being told what to say or think….just ponder it over and lets put away our swords…ok …..ok ?

Tweedledum and Tweedledee Agreed to have a battle; For Tweedeldum said Tweedledee Had spoilt his nice new rattle. Just then flew down a monstrous crow, As black as a tar-barrel; Which frightened both the heroes so, They quite forgot their quarrel. Lewis Carroll 1832–1898

Move along folks, nothing to see here;-)

Monotreme….barney bear should be locked up for his own good. Hes a sicko purple weirdo who hangs around kids.

But I get your point ……

As we say in Oklahoma:

Never wrestle with a hog. The hog enjoys it, and you just get muddy.

Or is it

“Don’t toss your pearls before swine, they just think they’re gumballs.”

Oh well. So much for Okie wisdom.

I guess that Melanie and Dem have both gone for the evening…

I have to post this anyway. First, I appreciate this forum no matter how it’s run. Second, who am I to tell the founders how to run their site? Third, I support the decisions of the moderators. Fourth, Dem, if you are going to shut down discussion of my right to self defense, please get it right. You stated we have a first amendment right to own guns. NO - we have a first amendment right to free speech. We have a second amendment right to keep and bear arms. Fifth, I have read many posts on many threads that have truly upset me. Don’t you think newbies are scared off everytime someone loses it and acts like the world is ending today? How about threads that advocate illegal acts? (yes, obtaining controlled drugs through false pretenses is a crime. Actually, it’s a felony…) I’ve never seen a moderator worried about that.

I have never been as upset on this site as I was when I read Melanie’s respons to Kim a little bit ago. Kim made points that, in my most humble opinion were right on. Melanie’s response?

“I am myself a shooter who NRA qualified at the age of 8. All of us, the mods, are professionals who deal regularly with the results of other people’s bad choices around firearms. The fact that you can’t follow the arguments on this thread tells me that you don’t require a serious reply.”

That is without a doubt the most offensive statement I’ve read on this site.

Dem - you have my respect; you have earned it over and over again, and I support your right to make the calls the way you see fit.

Melanie - I send you a big, wet raspberry!!!

DA,

I really don’t have the foggiest idea what you want or why you chose to quarrel. Why don’t we take this discussion to email and not bore the others. I can be found at melaniemattson@yahoo.com

Correct on the first and second amendment, scout. My error. Don’t know what I was thinking.

Thanks for your comments.

This is a great cite. I for one feel I am in another man’s house. As a matter of courtesy, I must respect his wishes. cloud9@strato.net

Okay---−12 hours I think is enough. I know that two of you are gonna slam me upside the head for having my say here, ‘cuz I disagree with both of you wholeheartedly, but here goes:

DemFromCT has made his decision, and is standing by it.

JoeW absolutely is convinced that a moderated debate is censorship. Uhm, JoeW? Are the Presidential debates considered censored because they are timed and moderated? Are the Senate debates in the Congressional chambers considered censored because the debates are timed and moderated?

Devil’s Advocate attacks Melanie because she, as a Moderator here, backs up her partner on the Wiki. DA—she has every right to express her feelings the way she sees fit. If you don’t agree with her, there really is no need to make personal attacks and trying to goad her into saying something that you want to hear. It ain’t gonna happen…

As each and every one of you can see, an unmoderated debate turns into nothing more than a pissing contest. This is one of the reasons I stay a centrist conservative (that would make me a red voter in an extremely blue state)---I KNOW that after trying to make my point, and getting told NO more than 3 times, it’s time to just SHUT MY MOUTH and move on with my life. It is very apparent here on this thread that there are two people who just cannot accept that they can’t have their way. Deal with it, get over it, and let’s get back to dealing with preparing for a possible pandemic, not How Many Bullets Do I Need?!!! Hell---just the title of the thread in question is subject to nothing more than unsubstantiated opinion, and nothing more.

You’ve all made your opinions known about this subject innumerable times. Drop it and move on. (Oh GAWD!!! I said MoveOn again. Aaaarrrgghhhhh!!!)

JoeW---you don’t own the software, you don’t own the domain name, you don’t own the servers. Simple as that. Go by the stated rules or shut up.

Devil’s Advocate---for you to turn on Melanie like that is just plain wrong.

Now….close this thread

the problem is, that we have no sub-forums here and everything goes into the main forum, and is “bumped” with a new post. So we get arms,gardening,recipes,history,humor,news,prepping-stuff, science,politics,nursing,pharma etc. all in one forum and you can’t easily avoid what you don’t want.

As per several requests, I will close this thread later today. If anyone wants the last word, you have a few hours left.

Moderators, I would like a clarification… is all mention of weapons of any kind banned from this site? Does a ban include only guns and ammunition for guns, or does it apply to baseball bats, knives, screwdrivers, pepper spray, frying pans etc? Is the discussion of self-protection of any kind banned?

Use your judgement, Kim. I would like to not have threads that are devoted to the topic. Despite your funny (it really was) comment in an unrelated thread, the word ‘gun’ or ammo’ isn’t going to be censored. Nor frying pans and screwdrivers, though if you really need discussion and instruction on how to use, you’ve got a problem bigger than flu ;-)

People coming here looking for science and flu basics, or public health planning, or how to best contact local officials, or tips on speaking at a town meeting, or what to do with the kids if the schools close aren’t really interested in the fine art of garrote, or the latest technology in tripwires. If that’s the first thing they see, they’ll not be back. So don’t scare away the customers by picking your teeth with a Bowie knife at the front door (I’m not taking the knife away, just asking you to sheath it). If you think that’s PC, well the store owner thinks it’s strictly business.

There have got to be other Forums to talk about that. You’re welcome to use them. If you’re an NRA member, why not write them and see if they’ll sponsor a self-defense forum, or check out the Survival Forum at Gunsnet.net as someone else suggested. But this isn’t the place.

P.S. After you use your judgement, I’ll use mine. ;−0

Dem

Please close this quick. It’s like a car accident, we can’t look away. Can we all agree to disagree on this point. We need to work together not fight. In my opinion this shows us what would happen in the event of a pandemic. It reminds me of Alexander Hage. I’m in charge now.Is this what would happen? Everyone wants to be in charge and make the decisions?

firefly – at 09:05 I agree, shut’er down.

“Shut, shut the door, good John! fatigu’d I said,

Tie up the knocker; say I’m sick, I’m dead.

The Dog-star rages!”

Epistle to Dr. Arbuthnot - Alexander Pope 1688–1744

To the gates, to the gates quick! Before the hord assails us once more! Okieman 1964-?

Dem, I agree that ammunition thread veered into another dimension at times, just as MANY (if not most) threads seem to do. People who advocate illegal acts to obtain prescriptions, people who advocate the use of some very weird and dangerous stuff as “medicine”, people who just wander way off into things not related to BF at all.

I just wonder why ONLY the info about weapons seems to be picked on, and especially why some of the questionable medical “info” posted is not better policed? My concern is that it seems it is ok for people to plunge off the deep end on some subjects, but not others. If you truly want this wiki to be a source of good, solid information for people, then it seems you should allow only proven, verifiable facts to be posted, and no opinions. Just seems that the word “Forum” is misleading, as it implies discussion, opinions, and exchange of information.

Beans and rice, generators, and alternative lighting have been discussed ad nauseum on this wiki, but I fail to see how they have any more of a direct connection to pandemic flu than weapons do. Yes, if there is a pandemic we may not be able to go out and get food, so maybe we should have it stockpiled. Yes, if there’s a pandemic our utilities may not be up and running so we may need alternate power sources. Yes, if there’s a pandemic then civil disruptions may occur, so we may need weapons. I think all are valid points of discusssion.

You’re confusing the wiki proper with the Forum. The wiki is more severely edited than the Forum, which is a bulletin board and comment section. You need to take up with Joe W the idea of correcting every mistake uttered in the Forum, and just how that should be done, and who decides what’s a mistake (and don’t even start with recipes). The traditional way is for other posters and commenters to say “no, you’re wrong” in some polite fashion. The content policing on the comment thread is extremely loose, but not, to Joe W’s distate, non-existent. Medical disclaimers are all over the wiki site if you bother to look. And beans and rice (powerful though beans may be in the wrong hands) don’t repel readers the way weapons threads do.

You always have the alternative of starting your own wiki if you don’t like the rules. But I caution you that it’s hard to please everyone.

End of discussion. Thanks for participating.